SE23 Forum

That is excellent news.

With the level of urgency rather high will there be a need for any help with handing out leaflets etc?

Would any updated information be found here or on the FHS website?

mattfh wrote:

Bear in mind the 17:35 train could be one of the 2 less trains per hour in the evening peak running to Forest Hill from December when our timetable changes...

The services being cut this December are the Charing Cross Services (to Caterham)

The trains being cut in May 2010 are:

southernrailway.com wrote:

Date: 21 Oct 2009
What?s happening and why?
The opening of the East London Line with the extensions to Dalston, Crystal Palace and West Croydon together with Southern services will provide a significant overall increase in capacity along the New Cross Gate ? Sydenham train route. The number of trains will double from six trains per hour to 12 trains per hour in the off peak and evening with even more trains in the morning peak.

This will necessitate changes to Southern services operating in the South London area as well as some minor changes to mainline services as a consequence. Essentially, we will share tracks and platforms along the route and therefore we must amend our services accordingly.

What does this mean for Southern services to and from London Bridge?
There will still be six Southern trains from Sydenham to New Cross Gate into London Bridge per hour in the morning peak.

There will be four Southern trains per hour to and from London Bridge in the off peak.

In the evening peak from London Bridge some trains will no longer call at New Cross Gate to Sydenham inclusive. This is because trains from London Bridge to West Croydon, Sutton and Epsom (which currently call at New Cross Gate to Sydenham) must be diverted to run fast to Croydon to accommodate new East London line trains. However, the Southern trains that will call from New Cross Gate to Sydenham trains from London Bridge will run no further than Croydon between 1700 and 1900. This means that there should be a better distribution of passengers, as those heading for stations beyond Croydon will switch to the ?fast? trains rather than using stopping services to New Cross Gate ? Sydenham as is the case now.

The table below shows the current departure times of trains from London Bridge to stations from New Cross Gate to Sydenham between 1700 and 1900 and the planned options for passengers from May 2010.

Code:

Currently - 1705  Plan from May 2010 - 1705

Currently - 1719                               diverted to ?fast? lines

Currently - 1725                               1721

Currently - 1735                               1736

Currently - 1751                               diverted to ?fast? lines

Currently - 1755                               1753

Currently - 1805                               1805

Currently - 1820                               diverted to ?fast? lines

Currently - 1824                               1821

Currently - 1834                               1836

Currently - 1851                               1851

The diverted trains will be fast to Norwood Junction. It MAY be possible to catch a fast train to Norwood Junction and then back on the ELL from West Croydon. That would (of course) require a Zone 4 travelcard.

There is nothing on Southern's website about the loss of Charing Cross services, but after a lot of digging, I have found that the proposed cessation of Charing Cross services was open for public consultation between 8th and 18th September on National Rail's website. The relevant documents can be found here. In their application Southern claim that they "consulted with a wide range of stakeholders potentially affected by the timetable change". I wonder who they asked? It is intended that the proposed supplemental agreement would take effect on the Principal Timetable Change Date ? 13 December 2009 and will expire on 23 May 2010.

Thanks for the info Newforester.

The link to the Network Rail site doesn't seem to work. Couldn't find the documents using NR's own search facility so used advanced Google search instead. Does this link work?

Nope, that link not working either. Network Rail must have its website set up so that you can't link directly to individual pages. (Any conspiracy theorists like to offer an opinion on why that might be?!).

So:
- go to http://www.google.com
- click on advanced search
- in the first search box type 'Southern supplemental'
- in the site or domain box type 'networkrail.co.uk'
- press Enter
- click on the first result and voila!

Or:
- go to http://www.networkrail.co.uk
- click on 'For Business' tab at the top of the page
- on the left hand menu click on 'Track Access' (second up from the bottom)
- click on '2. Completed Consultations'
- find '2009.09.08 New Southern Railway 36th Supplemental - Consultation closed 18 September 2009' (scroll down to the bottom and work your way up)
- and there you are.

What not to do:
- use Network Rail's search facility to look for 'Southern Railway 36th Supplemental' (or variations thereof) cos you won't find it.

Try putting

Code:

"New Southern Railway 36th Supplemental " site:networkrail.co.uk

into Google and selecting the first option

This would bappear to be so obfuscated as to suggest an improper initial consultation - which it seems nobody here was aware of.

Are they bound by any requirements for consultations which, if not followed, could make this one invalid?

Anyway, I thought they were saying the DFT were responsible for the changes...

This is interesting. The background to this 'consultation' appears to be set out on the 'Track access' page, which is in the 'For business' part (not the 'For passengers' part!) of the Network Rail website. The key paragraph is:

Track access contracts, and amendments to the contracts, are void unless they are approved by the Office of Rail Regulation (exceptions include certain open access contracts that pre-date the Railways Act 1993). In preparing applications for such approval, Network Rail will in the majority of cases consult other parties where they are potentially affected by the proposed changes. These consultations will appear on this page (Emphasis added).

I can't believe that 'other parties' is intended here to refer to us punters. It must surely mean other train operators. I remain unclear ar whether any of the players in all this have a statutory duty to consult passengers affected by potential changes. I see there is a body called Passenger Focus whose website says they 'are an independent public body set up by the Government to protect the interests of passengers.' Have they been involved, I wonder?

Ah, I now see that the text of recent open letter to the SLP is at http://foresthillsociety.blogspot.com/. (Not quite enough prominence to the Charing Cross issue in my opinion, although I recognize this may be a minority interest. Is the view that this is now anyway a lost cause? If so, why?)

I have also discovered the FH Society's (chair: Michael Abrahams) submission to the original Rail Utilisation Proposal, over two years ago (before I joined this forum, so I didn't know of it.) It is at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20do...ciety.pdf.

If Michael really has withdrawn from the discussion on this forum, wouldn't it be helpful if somebody else from the FH Society kept us up to date?

I wanted to point to the other response from the FH Society to the South Central Franchise: http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2008/07...chise.html which specifically called for a continuation of the Charing Cross service. This was written in July 2008.

What I don't understand is how long the New Southern Railway 36th Supplemental - Consultation lasted. The consultation appears to have run for 10 days, but surely I must be mistaken.

I am sure that FH Soc (not me) will keep you updated on the actions of the FH Society, as they did yesterday http://se23.com/forum/showthread.php?tid...7#pid21767

Thanks, Michael. Sorry I overlooked yesterday's posting from the FH Society.

?Foresters? wrote:

Are they bound by any requirements for consultations which, if not followed, could make this one invalid?

Not sure, but according to question 4.12 of the Form 22 I referred to earlier

Quote:

Passenger Focus: please state whether (and if so to what extent) the services in the proposed amendment have been discussed with Passenger Focus, and provide copies of any relevant correspondence
Southern has consulted with a wide range of stakeholders potentially affected by the timetable change.

Also, London TravelWatch state

Quote:

We liaise with service operators, transport regulators and local authorities. In turn, transport operators must consult us on any proposed changes to their services or closures of lines or stations

So it looks like they were required to consult at least Passenger Focus and London Travelwatch. Unfortunately both Southern Railway and National Rail are private companies and so are exempt from data Protection requirements of the FOI. However, ORR is a public body...

Does anybody know what will happen after 7 pm? Will there still be four trains an hour LB to FH?

I did try the various links posted but can't find out more than has been stated here.

Regards

John

John, it was stated (somewhere!) that there would be 4 trains an hour after 7pm. I understand that these trains wouldn't be 'local services only though' (to West Croydon or Vic) but would go further out to East Croydon/Caterham/Purley.

I also read somewhere that the last train of the night would leave slightly later from LB but I'm unsure how many per hour will be running from 10pm

I see the LB/Victoria loop is getting press on BBC London news this morning. Stated that Borris is speaking to the transport minister.

Tam raised this with Boris Johnson at the People's Question Time in Brixton yesterday.

Boris refused to commit to anything really - and some people who were there told me that they thought he sounded like he didn't really understand the issue.

The full PQT is on LBC at 7pm tonight, or you can find Tam's brief write up from last night here:
listentolewisham.org

Cheers, Rob (Tam's partner - on behalf of Tam).

Gaz wrote:

I also read somewhere that the last train of the night would leave slightly later from LB but I'm unsure how many per hour will be running from 10pm

You can go onto the Southern website and download a personal timetable - which now has an option to choose either the current or December onwards timetable.

I did Charing Cross to Forest Hill and downloaded the most suffixed and appended timetable I've ever seen. And of course there are no direct trains.

Yep, I've just done the same for direct trains from LB in the evenings. Horrendous timetable!

It appears though that there are not 4 trains an hour in the late evening, the trains that are running are not evenly spread out and the last trains still leave at 2324, 2353 and 0026... Cursing

Erm, those are the times that the last three trains have always run.

Yeah, I thought Southern had said something about the trains not being so crowded in the evening as they'd be more evenly spread throughout the hour (and local services only). I also thought that when they said 4 trains an hour off-peak they meant 4 trains an hour all evening...[/i]

Tam - Thank you very much for taking up the issue of cuts on the Forest Hill to London Bridge line.

I note that you have also taken up the issue of the axing of the South London line - that's the "loop" line running from London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye etc.

Please reassure me (and other residents of SE23) that you do not intend to support the campaign to reinstate this line, the result of which will be to cut our services to and from LB even further and could also threaten our services to and from Victoria. There are only limited "slots" for trains at both these stations. Talk to any experienced train engineer you like or London Travelwatch - reinstating the South London Line can only mean trains from FH will have to be cut.

Two into one simply isn't going to fit. Can you clarify your position for me please?

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