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Another accident on Perry Vale
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Erekose


Posts: 553
Joined: May 2010
Post: #21
23-09-2015 05:39 PM

Yes I have a few emails which are almost carbon copies of that one in response to my comments on this stretch of road going back some years. A better solution to their odd table and road narrowing would have been a better central island.
Towing away the cars which park on the double yellow lines on the bend would be a good start to parking enforcement.[/font]

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appetite4


Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #22
23-09-2015 05:41 PM

All apologies for a post so long it seems I have to split it in two. My reply to the council.
------------------------
thank you for your quick and full reply. There are a number of things that I would wish to point out in respect of the answers it contains.

The Council recently carried out works to improve road safety at this location. These works included a realignment of the carriageway, the introduction of a speed indicator device (SID) the construction of speed tables, islands and kerb build outs. We also introduced parking restrictions. Sight lines around the bend in the road have been improved, as has pedestrian safety, by this recent widening of the footway and remodelling of the carriageway. Pedestrian improvements have been made along the length of road by the subway and these include a wider pavement, narrower carriageway, better crossing at the car park entrance and a flat topped speed reducing table by the subway where people want to cross. Prior to this work pedestrians crossed here unaided.

All of the works that you describe above took place several years ago. Certainly before all of the incidents that I have described to you. As such I am suggesting that there is an ongoing issue here which these works have not successfully addressed. In particular please be very clear that the widened footway you mention is on the opposite side of the road to all three impacts.

Enforcement of the speed limit is a matter for the Police. I would suggest that perhaps residents approach the Police to see if they could carry out some speed or other driving enforcement.

I agree and I will contact the local SNT. Traffic calming measures are however the councils remit even if you must then seek funding for physical schemes from TfL.

In the meantime officers will look into whether there is a personal injury accident problem at this location. Unfortunately damage only accidents are not used in data for traffic management schemes. This is because there is no reliable means of obtaining the data as often accidents are not reported to Police or insurers and there is therefore no means of assessing possible causes. If the Police confirm that there have been personal injury accidents our engineers will look further at the scheme to determine whether there are any further physical measures that could be considered. If so funding for a scheme would need to be sought from Transport for London, who fund almost almost of the traffic management measure in the borough. A reduction in personal injury accidents is one of the criteria for finding applications.

I cannot comment on whether the drivers of the two vehicles that have struck City Walk within the last three months were injured in the accidents. I do know a pedestrian waiting at the bus stop was. I have seen this "there isn't a reason to act unless/until someone gets hurt" rationale cited before. I am sure the councils risk managers have approved it. I would simply remind you of two things.

1. The bistro there has escaped a vehicle entering it's bar/restaurant area via the patio doors (in front of which there are tables on the footpath in good weather) by less than ten feet twice in under three months.

2. This latest accident occurred at @ 2.30pm. One hour later that pavement would have been busy with parents and children returning from nearby schools.

If the councils risk managers want to wait until an accident causing injuries and fatalities at a level similar to the Glasgow bin lorry event then I'm sure the algorithms will say it was a worthwhile risk. I doubt that the families affected will see it that way.

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appetite4


Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #23
23-09-2015 05:43 PM

With regard to the provision of a crossing; I am afraid the Council cannot introduce a pedestrian crossing at that location because the sight lines are not good enough. In other words pedestrians and vehicles approaching the crossing would not be able to see each other from a sufficient distance to allow vehicles to slow down and stop safely. However we recognise that this is the 'desire line' where people want to cross. That's why the engineers put a in flat top table as an informal crossing protected by speed cushions on either side of it to slow traffic down. A stretch of guard railing has been installed to encourage pedestrians to cross at the edge of the table where sightlines are best.

I accept that putting a crossing along this stretch does have it's own issues although the reasons cited - poor sight lines - do seem at odds with the statement in the opening paragraph that "Sight lines around the bend in the road have been improved, as has pedestrian safety". Personally I feel that the section of guard railing by the subway is tokenist at best. The pedestrian crossing issue exists along a 200m+ length of the road (from the corner of Hindseleys Place right down to the junction with Waldram Road) not just the 3m-4m opposite the subway entrance where the rails have been installed.

I'm afraid that other than extending the guardrailing to prevent people crossing too close to the bend there is little more we can do to improve the situation.

I had somewhat come to the view that this may actually be what is required. Such railings would protect pedestrians in the event of a similar accident by acting as an initial barrier to stop cars crossing the footpath. They would also shepherd pedestrians to a limited number of specific crossing points. Although this would undoubtedly annoy some pedestrians it would probably be better than the current situation where there is a crossing free for all and drivers cannot know where they will next encounter a pedestrian.

I have asked for parking enforcement in this area to be stepped up.

Thank you.

I would be grateful for your views on the points that I have made and very interested to hear the feedback you recieve from the police in respect of whether these are deemed to be personal injury accidents.

Yours sincerely

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #24
23-09-2015 11:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:
how about painting the curbs alternately red and white as they do in Monaco?


Because they'll start driving like it's the Monaco Grand Prix!


You mean they might slow down?

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #25
24-09-2015 07:44 AM

The current thinking by TfL and councils is that fences do not prevent injury to pedestrians and can add their own dangers as pedestrians and cyclists can get trapped. This may be especially true on a left hand bend on a road that is too narrow and with poor sight lines.

What I see as part of the problem is frustration from drivers turning into Perry Vale from Waldram Crescent, and then accelerating away as the road turns the corner. Part of the solution may be to tackle to cause of frustration (bad parking on Perry Vale) and the other part of the solution would be proper speed bumps at this location, rather than the fairly useless speed tables.

Previously people have suggested a mini-roundabout at Dacres Road junction, and I think this could help improve the junction with Westbourne Drive.

Although it is dangerous to speculate on the causes of specific accidents, it does seem that the improved road design does not work well for people who do not know the road and insist on driving too quickly. This means that speed reduction methods are vital to prevent accidents involving cars, pedestrians, bus stops, and walls.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #26
24-09-2015 08:22 AM

The issue here is that there will be nothing done by the police and the council as they do not have the manpower. Apart from the parking officers on their scooters handing out tickets to those parked over the half hour allowed or people parking in CPZ's they do not do anything else.

I rang the council to ask if they could send traffic enforcement to stop our neighbors crossing the pavement and parking on the front lawn of their flats meaning we were unable to park on our CPZ (for which we pay quite a bit) and the response was "sorry, we don't have the manpower".

Don't hold your breath.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #27
24-09-2015 09:08 AM

In my email to Lewisham yesterday I made the point that Michael makes above, namely that the road narrowing and poor parking around Waldram Crescent mean drivers speed up towards the table, released from their frustration. And the table is worse than useless because cars don't slow for it, but pedestrians act on the assumption they will. More dangerous, not less.

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shaman


Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #28
24-09-2015 09:26 AM

I don't really understand the council's attitude towards illegal parking. Most councils see it as an important way of generating income (though that's possibly not legal itself).

You pay some bloke to go out and give out tickets. You use the revenue to pay his wages. Rocket science?

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corvair
Unregistered


Post: #29
24-09-2015 10:29 AM

The parking enforcement and traffic situation is indeed atrocious between the underpass exit on Perry Vale and the junction of Waldram Park Road.

Double parking, parking on double yellows, and parking on kerbs is a real problem.

It's well documented that this is an area where parking and road use laws are disregard with alarming frequency. I cannot speculate that these issues have contributed to the cited accidents, but thorough investigation is required. Should illegal road use be cited as a contributing factor then enforcement must be escalated.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #30
24-09-2015 10:58 AM

Bad parking slows traffic down and creates gaps in the stream to help people cross - they create natural chicanes.
Logically we need more bad parking along Perry Vale!

We will never be told how these accidents happened, so we can only guess, but I think a driver would have to be really going out their way to get up to the speeds needed to cause the damage we have seen, if they were coming up hill and in/out the parked cars from a stand still at Waldram Cres.
Surely it is more probable that they have built up speed all along Perry Vale, only to spin off at the bend?

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #31
24-09-2015 11:51 AM

The bad parking means that vehicles driven at speed from the FH end tend to stray into the oncoming road which is not fun as I have found out a number of times. Please remember that there are people out there who's natural inclination is not to slow down as they dgaf.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 511
Joined: May 2012
Post: #32
24-09-2015 12:00 PM

Quote:
dgaf

I had to google that! Ohmy

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #33
24-09-2015 12:02 PM

Sorry Laugh

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #34
24-09-2015 04:28 PM

DGAF! Like it!

But you would get the same problem with chicanes and the other road narrowings that have been suggested.
They work by forcing drivers to negotiate with each other.

The Dgaffers will eventually meet a similarly minded driver head-on and eliminate themselves off the roads.

Look at it as Darwinian traffic management.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #35
24-09-2015 04:40 PM

Perryman, I am afraid you then end up with this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvide...d-off.html

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #36
25-09-2015 11:15 AM

I'm not sure that an obstinate woman and an old man facing off in a tunnel quite captures the problems on PV, unless lewisham are going to start redirecting traffic up the pedestrian tunnel.

Plus if you believe the statistics, women and old people are safer and more considerate drivers. Perhaps the couple in the video were married?

But I take your point that facing normal considerate drivers up against the 10% of nutters is less than ideal, but we do need a physical mechanism to control them.

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