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Do we need a pedestrian crossing on Perry Vale at the rear of Forest Hill station?
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robbrockley


Posts: 91
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #41
21-10-2014 10:06 PM

Ah thanks. I have never seen that happen. Bizarre behaviour!

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #42
21-10-2014 10:08 PM

The arrows painted on the road say that they may turn right from the left hand lane.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #43
22-10-2014 08:52 AM

Quote:
The arrows painted on the road say that they may turn right from the left hand lane.


Yes, but not into the carriageway for traffic coming down from Hornimans!

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #44
22-10-2014 10:46 AM

Very dangerous!

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #45
22-10-2014 10:46 AM

I did that turn out of Downham outside Grove Park when I was learning, and ended up on the wrong side, but that's more easily done, and there's no island!

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #46
22-10-2014 12:32 PM

I would concur with RSH, and say yes, chicanes and sometimes other things like roundabouts can and do indeed have small lanes built into them to allow cyclists to avoid engaging in the dual.

With regards to the flow etc, I would say that traffic flowing into Perry Vale from Waldram Crescent would have right of way, preventing build up on the South Circ.

To me, having any kind of official crossing would be a nightmare, and for me, this is why.

To prevent the traffic stopping every minute, the crossing would have to be timed to allow a pedestrian build up, then a crossing sequence. As the other side of the underpass shows, people are just not willing to wait for traffic lights, and would continue to run or stroll in front of traffic.

A Zebra crossing would just cause lots of issues.
Line of sight is MUCH more important for a zebra crossing, as is spotting people on dark winter nights. Misunderstandings in body language from either party can lead to disaster. Uncontrolled pedestrian flow could stop the road for a couple of minutes at a time and so on.
While its not a pedestrian concern, it will most certainly be considered in consultation.

Strangely enough, in these circumstances its almost actually safer to just slow the flow of the traffic enough for all parties to have both clear sight, and enough time within an acceptable window to negotiate the road.

Im sure many will disagree with the above, and thats fine by me. Just my unprofessional opinion.
But I still think that a well thought out chicane would be most fitting.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #47
23-10-2014 01:34 AM

We are all amateurs here and all have put far more thought into the problem than the professionals who have left a bit of a mess in my opinion.
It is like they ran out of money/time/interest long before they completed the job.

rsh - Sorry I am unfamiliar with the Lennard Road and Kings Hall Road junction, and cannot find anything resembling a cycle lane there on goggle maps. Or Bing.

It would be good to see examples of what people are proposing as I'm not sure if we are all talking about the same thing anyway. It is hard when there isn't something near by that we can say: another one of them, please.

For me the simplest solution is an ambiguous tried and tested set of traffic lights.
And sure, the timing of the wait should be such that it retains control of the pedestrians - especially at such a busy point.
But even a badly timed one would provide a safe regular break in the traffic, to enable people to more easily cross all along this section.

Put the chicane further up PV on the straights where traffic speed is more of a problem. That is a more orthodox use of what I think of as a chicane.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #48
23-10-2014 07:10 AM

Perryman - have a look at this image from street view. The cycle lane runs between the pavement and the long islands.
Kings Hall Road pinch point

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #49
23-10-2014 11:58 AM

Good example RSH.

One of the frustrating things is, these measures could easily be tested with water filled barriers and a few temporary signs, just to see how they affect the flow of vehicles and pedestrians.

Im sure there is a solution to the matter out there.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #50
23-10-2014 02:35 PM

thanks rshdunlop.
I wonder what purpose it serves at this point?
But sure, it safely segregates cycles as you said. And traffic is not having to swerve from one side to the other, which seems sensible in our busier pedestrian area.

I agree it would slow traffic and create useful breaks in the traffic - I'll order 2 off you for the 2 long straight sections on PV - one perhaps towards Christ church school and the other by Valentine's court!

But I am not sure how a crossing would work with this feature at the station. Would people wait to cross in the cycle lanes themselves or at the give way points at either end (like at a junction, but without the aid of a central island?)
Would the partially sighted be able to use the crossing safely?

Sorry if I am coming across as difficult, and all these suggestions are better than we've got, but I need more persuading than they might be better than the simple pelican proposed by the councillor.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #51
23-10-2014 02:39 PM

Sorry, Perryman, I'm not sure what you mean - the purpose of what? The islands or the cycle path?

This isn't a chicane but a pinch point where the traffic turning in has right of way over the traffic coming out. The islands reduce the carriageway to one lane so the waiting traffic is forced to pull over and wait. The cycle path allows cyclists to carry on regardless, not giving way in the way the cars are required to.

I posted it as an example of the type of cycle path that could be used as part of a chicane, so the cyclists aren't part of the chicane protocol at all.

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #52
23-10-2014 02:46 PM

There's a road over Wandworth way that has chicanes where cyclists are able to carry on regardless - can't remember the street name - will rack brains and see if I can find it and post an image

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #53
23-10-2014 04:54 PM

I think the answer really is a crossing is a non starter, in my eyes anyway, the impact on the traffic flow at that point would be horrible. And any crossing with any sort of delay would still end up with people just walking out into the road anyway.

Maybe I should have been clearer with my chicane idea, very much similar to what RSH has posted, and a priority traffic flow, rather than a 2 lane swerve going on. Sorry for any confusion.

The kind I had in mind was as pictured by me earlier in the thread.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #54
23-10-2014 05:03 PM

Another answer might be to make the road one way from the Waldram end, diverting oncoming traffic down a side road (I forget the name of the road).

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #55
24-10-2014 01:42 PM

rsdunlop - I'm trying to work out how this pinch point might work as a crossing and I think it fair to say that there might not be many good examples.
I am not a driver but would have thought a pelican would cause less of a hold up then a pinch point, which operates 24/7.

These lights are not red very long, but it seems people are against them as they do not like being told what to do, especially when a mere pedestrian appears to have control.
And drivers like chicanes as they see them as a challenge to their driving skill.
That's the way people are I guess.

The example you gave is a strange one - no-one is going to be speeding approaching or leaving a mini-roundabout. And no-one is going to have too much trouble crossing the road in that leafy neighbourhood to justify anything more than an island.
I am familiar with Kings Hall Road further along and it does get a fair bit of fast through traffic. It just seems a bit odd to me that they put the traffic calming at the start of the road. It seems to be there to deter through traffic more than anything else.

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Erekose


Posts: 553
Joined: May 2010
Post: #56
24-10-2014 02:00 PM

I have put various suggestions for the crossing south of the station to Lewisham highways in the past and been disappointed with their negative attitude so maybe this represents a change of heart.
A simple central island would make crossing a lot easier and would have been simple before the current road narrowing 'improvements' were carried out.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #57
24-10-2014 02:16 PM

Perryman, I think the issue here with crossings is not the motorists don't like them, but as I have pointed out earlier, nor do pedestrians. Waiting.... WAITING 1 minute for the lights to change, when they can just nip across between cars... Surely not.

Look on any narrowish road, and the number of people who can be bothered to walk to a designated crossing point then wait for the lights to change, and its shocking how many cant be bothered.

A pinch point simply slows the traffic enough on one side of the point, to make it safer for the lemmings to walk into oncoming traffic and stand a chance. Its not meant to be an official crossing. Just like the island further down by the All in One, and Church Vale.

If you take 20-30 mins to watch traffic flow along the road at peak times, especially around the area we are talking about, then factor in the impact to traffic waiting to enter Perry Vale, then Waldram Cresent... Any delay of more than 30 seconds causes the South Circ to slow, and so on. Now put a crossing in, with a frequent enough, and long enough crossing phase to allow the flow of commuters from a newly arrived train, and the constant stop start nature of the traffic becomes an issue.

Sadly, this IS a factor which is considered.

Should the road get an official crossing, I will be seriously keen to see how many people cant be bothered to use it. But I don't think it will come to that. And personally dont think it warrants one.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #58
24-10-2014 02:23 PM

Perryman - as I said, I mentioned this pinch point as an example of how cyclists can be catered for in chicanes NOT as an example of a crossing to be used at Perry Vale. You contradicted my assertion that there are cycle lanes provided in such traffic calming structures. I'm just illustrating that you were mistaken.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #59
25-10-2014 10:01 PM

Rsdunlop: There is always an exception that proves the rule....

Snazy - 1 minute is quite a long time standing patiently to cross a road, watching the distant traffic come flowing past, but the newer crossings (Sydenham) are set to an even longer wait.
If these crossings are to have control of the 'lemmings' then they must be responsive, but that no longer seems to be the plan. They have become more like disability crossings for those who do not have any choice.

And maybe that is fair enough - the quick never had a problem crossing (as they helpfully point out in these threads) and with the 20mph restriction, maybe crossing will be easier still for most.
But not everyone.

Maybe a pelican would be a disaster - I agree 100% with you that they should try some temporary options out to see their impact and how useful they are. This petition might just get them thinking....

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #60
25-10-2014 10:56 PM

Perryman - just because you've never noticed these cycle lanes, that doesn't mean they don't exist. I've just asked my husband, who cycles in London a lot (several times a week). He says there are many. And that my last word on the subject as it's getting off topic.

I wonder if the fact that a local councillor has started a petition rather than going through official channels actually means the council are still firmly against a crossing there.

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