Do you mean Sydenham Road? Otherwise known as the Great Car Park of SE26? I should think people use Dartmouth Road for exactly the same reason I do - to avoid Sydenham Road. I live on Mayow Road, about half way along, and regularly drive from Crystal Palace to get home. As the crow flies, going through Sydenham is much the quickest route. But rather than sit in traffic on Westwood Hill just waiting to even get onto Sydenham Road, I take Sydenham Hill, Wells Park Road, Kirkdale, Dartmouth Road, Perry Vale, Mayow Road. Even at the peak of school-run time I rarely meet standing traffic on that route.
If I was going from Crystal Palace to Catford, I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near Sydenham Road. Or Penge. I'd use Forest Hill.
rshdunlop,
It is certainly good to start to understand why people are using Dartmouth Road - in this case to bypass Sydenham Road.
It is also interesting that this did not use to be the case last year:
rshdunlop wrote:
The irony is that while the traffic in Sydenham around the roadworks is slow, it still moves faster than the traffic on Dartmouth Road when it bunches, especially mid-afternoon between 3pm and 5pm. Recently, and more than once, it has taken me 20 minutes to get from the library to FH station at that time of day. Quicker to head to Cobbs Corner in Sydenham and wait for the temporary lights to change or head up the hill to the Horniman and back around via the South Circ where traffic flows well.
The traffic seems to have worsened through Sydenham since they changed the phasing of the lights at the Kent House Road junction, so only 3 cars get through on green, travelling towards Crystal Palace.
Indeed, Michael. If you remember, some intrepid person realised the phasing on the lights at the end of Dartmouth Road were wrong. That was the case at the time I posted that comment. As soon as that fault was rectified, the tailbacks on Dartmouth Road disappeared. It was from that point on that I started to use it to avoid Sydenham Road at peak times.
Isn't one of the reasons for the bunching of traffic in Dartmouth Road that at the station end it's too narrow to accommodate buses going each way and is compounded by bad/illegal parking? Agree about avoiding Sydenham. Painfully slow.
Dartmouth Road only gets congested when the lights are badly phased (like last year) and also when traffic going towards Dulwich on the South Circular is congested and blocks the lights. There should be a yellow box at the junction to prevent the road being blocked. I'd also favour a total redesign of the junction so it's like Oxford circus and you can cross from corner to corner. I'd also ban parking on the stretch of Dartmouth Road by the florists where parked cars and vans cause havoc. I'd create some new 30 min bays outside paddy power, heron house etc by digging up the 'plaza'. For me town centre parking is also a problem so instead of making people drive miles out of their way around the bak to get to Sainsbury's car park I'd get rid of parking on Davids Road and make David's road two way to Sainsbury's.
David's Road 2 way would be a disaster. People turning left off the South Circular would create all kinds of problems and back traffic up. You have cars flying down that Hill, having to slam on the brakes as people try and turn in. It would also remove 20? Parking bays without adding any more parking. So that's actually removing parking in Forest Hill. More importantly, residents parking, which should take absolute priority over visitors or shops. (now there's also the old gym development which is going to have 10? Flats who will all rely on street parking)
Also putting more parking outside Paddy Power and digging up pedestrians walk ways isn't a great idea for a street that already feels over run by cars. People that expect to get easy parking in Forest Hill are just kidding themselves. This is London. An area with the population density of Forest Hill, which is on the South Circular, is never going to have lots of free, accessible and ample parking.
Would prefer more radical ideas, such as crossing in all directions or just removing all the street furniture to make shared space, but... if all is wanted is a larger island to cross on Devonshire Road, then this could be achieved by removing one of the lanes going South. They are both straight-on or turn right anyway and the left hand one is the one to keep for large vehicles and their turning circle.
but... if all is wanted is a larger island to cross on Devonshire Road, then this could be achieved by removing one of the lanes going South.
I quite like this idea.
Although if tfl were open to losing a lane,
then we could narrow the road by 6 foot,
remove the island, and have our 1 phase crossing over 3 lanes widths, perhaps a few yard further up Devonshire Rd.
Currently the crossing outside the 'old launderette' starts half way round the bend, so you have to cross 3 lane widths to get to the island.
A 1 phase crossing would not stop the traffic any longer than present, with this narrower road. Michael - make it so.
CYCLISTS and residents have met to discuss safety improvements at a key junction in Forest Hill town centre.
The meeting was organised by London Assembly member Darren Johnson on Wednesday.
Quote:
Forest Hill Society chairman Michael Abrahams said: "We strongly support any action to help make this junction more friendly to pedestrians.
"The junction is difficult to cross and is a major crossing for users of the town centre, interchange to bus services and visitors to the Horniman Museum - often with large groups of children.
"The existing pedestrian refuge outside the station is inadequate for the number of pedestrians held there for a long time, and it is not always clear to pedestrians when it is safe to cross.
"Furthermore, the corner of William Hill sticks out into the pavement, making it extremely narrow for pedestrians to go down Dartmouth Road.
Michael, I applaud your help but "it is not always clear when pedestrians can cross". It is very clear. there is a green pedestrian light, there is a red one. Choose green and stay clean, choose red and become a red smear.
I know we meet at serious and also fun events (last being the opening party at The Perryvale which is an amazing addition to FH, I think) By the way all we do get on but just might have different opinions and info sometimes :-)
Last serious meeting which was D Rd Improvements we had a date of these trafffic lights being fixed by 2018 which is a long way off, is that still the case Michael? and do you have anymore info on this? Was Mark able to help push this forward?
Londondrz,
You are correct that if people waited for green then they are almost guaranteed a safe crossing (assuming cars don't jump the lights or stop across the junction). But the reality of this crossing is a bit more confusing for pedestrians.
As you can see from the photo from Google Streetview, as soon as the traffic light from London Road goes red, some people assume they can cross, and some make it before the cars from Dartmouth Road get to the crossing, others have to turn back having stepped into the road, expecting that the green man phase was coming up.
The positioning of the traffic signal and the pedestrian signal make it particularly unclear for pedestrians as the pedestrian signal is only on one side of the crossing, away from the traffic signal and pedestrians cannot see that the lights facing Dartmouth Road are changing.
A countdown timer (for waiting rather than crossing pedestrians) would help pedestrians to know how long they will wait until the next green man. Unfortunately, although this works in many places throughout America, and helps pedestrians to understand how long they have to wait. See http://media.columbian.com/img/photos/20...signal.jpg
P1971,
I haven't heard anything further on plans for 2018. And the article fails to clarify:
Quote:
[Darren] Johnson has criticised London Mayor Boris Johnson for scaling back a review which had aimed to look at 500 junctions in the capital with safety concerns.
However:
Quote:
A spokesman for the Mayor of London said: "As we have stated, many more junctions than those named in the junction review will be improved.
Work is already under way at a range of locations to deliver safe cycling infrastructure and this will continue over the next few years as we fully deliver the Mayor's Vision for Cycling.
This will include looking at delivering a range of improvements around the Forest Hill area.
Hi Michael, I agree a count down timer would help but once again we seem to be cow towing to the lowest common denominator. There is a pedestrian crossing on a busy junction, it has a pedestrian crossing indicator on both sides of the island. If stopping on the Pedder side and looking across to the WH Smith side I have never been confused and wanted to cross because that light was green. There is a big red man staring at me across from the island.
If people cant see this and understand it then there really is little hope for them in life. I know this may sound harsh but why do we as a country always worry about what stupid people may or may not do. I see people crossing lower down the road where they cannot possibly see traffic approaching from down the London Road. It is very dangerous, but they still do it.
People still push babies and kids in buggies across the street even with traffic flowing and the pedestrian light red. Why do they do it? Maybe they are late for a meeting with Ban Ki-Moon to discuss the crisis in Syria or and important meeting with Cobra to talk about the raised security threat levels. Or maybe they are just a bit thick.
People need to step back a bit from their hectic lives and reflect for a minute. If you didn't get the green man there will be another coming along shortly. I would rather wait than risk getting run over, nothing in my life is that important that I cant wait two minutes.
Well said michael - this crossing is counter intuitive and you'll often see people every few minutes fooled into thinking it is at last their turn and having to scamper back.
They are not stupid - it is just this crossing is different to any other.
It is simply very badly designed.
The count down idea is excellent, but unfortunately the countdown tfl want to bring in is to time people as they cross. This apparently encourages people cross faster and so tfl can further reduce the total crossing time.
It also encourages people to cross at the very end of the cycle. Not good.
As superior as your wait timer idea is, michael, we can't really have some lights displaying crossing timers and others waiting timers, without having a total rethink on how information is sensibly displayed to people.
An exercise like that is way beyond tfl's capabilities - they can't even get the basics right.
Have to agree with Londondrz.
There are lights for humans and lights for vehicles. The ones for humans are in the shape of humans to make it a bit clearer for those confused by all the lights.
We could always ask for a permanent crossing guard, just to make sure people don't get too confused.
With regards to the Google Maps image. Note the man in orange, crossing towards you in the picture. He has NO clear view of the red light behind his head, there is no confusion there by the signals, just assumption and impatience.
Many crossings have the traffic signal visible to the pedestrians, but then many pedestrians know the light is NOT for them, and wait til the light that is, changes. I am not sure how this crossing is so different to others that it requires a complete rethink.
I know its a serious issue, but because people "assume" a traffic light turning red means they can cross, there is something wrong or badly planned about the crossing? Seriously?
Maybe some tuition signs would help "How to use a crossing" ? Or get the Green Cross Code man down there for a few weeks?
The herding of people in the tiny islands is stupid, totally agree. And I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the permanent placement of the new poles for the lights and WAIT button squeezes the island even more, I'm not sure a double buggy would make it through, nor some electric wheel chairs.
The islands are the biggy for me, and possibly the re-phasing of the final sequence before crossing is allowed. A wide island, and a single crossing movement from W H Smiths to Pedder worked well for years, but I guess has an impact of traffic flow. But reintroducing it would sure as heck eliminate the need to have a human pen in the middle of the road while people wait for the second side to be safe to cross.
Oh and yes, countdown timers to next crossing phase would work much better than "quick, not much time left, ruuuuuuuun" timers too, I agree. Was saying this to the better half only the other day.
Well that's my opinion. I'm sure I will be disagreed with in a number of ways, maybe even belittled, but hey, democracies are great, right
This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 12:28 PM by Snazy.
As superior as your wait timer idea is, michael, we can't really have some lights displaying crossing timers and others waiting timers, without having a total rethink on how information is sensibly displayed to people.
Across America they have a mix of countdown systems (waiting and crossing), some are just countdowns for crossing and some countdown for both crossing and walking.
I agree that TfL have chosen one implementation method and there is little chance of them changing it to a better system in the next decade. But theoretically it would be possible to have a red man with a red countdown and a green man with a green count down. It wouldn't take long for pedestrians to realise that the red countdown is a waiting time rather than crossing time. And the implementation cost should not be much different to installing single countdown crossings.
Got to agree with all of that. Would be lovely to see them implement the countdown to cross system, but I'm sure that would just cause further confusion now that one is established.
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