I've seen that video clip and it does appear that taking the railings down is a sensible idea in principle but I don't think just taking the railings down here without some other improvements to the crossing point is the right thing to do.

This is quite a tiny island in the middle of a very busy junction.

Some of the pictures show nicely designed crossing points with wider spaces for pedestrians to wait.

This whole corner needs some serious looking at but I wouldn't hold my breath.

They have taken down the railings at Vauxhall Cross and it doesn't appear to have made pedestrians fling themselves into the roads any more frequently. It's also useful for cyclists since they have an escape route should a motorised vehicle (high sided or not) cut the corner - with railings there is little chance.

However, I agree that given the size of the island, removing them without considering a proper redesign is foolish. Pedestrians are second-class citizens going through Forest Hill and it's ridiculous that those trying to get to the station have to wait multiple phases to cross a road. They deserve equal consideration and a pause in the traffic so that they have priority across the full junction (as Foresters says like Oxford Circus). Yes, it might delay drivers a little - 30 seconds or so - but as drivers are a minority in London, why should they take greater priority?

Well said Applespider.

Of course the solution tfl are likely to come up with is to just close the crossing - problem solved.

All pedestrians and chickens would then need to be filtered through 4 phases to cross the road via Dartmouth Rd, or perhaps be redirected to the co-op crossing - 'just round the corner', although that crossing has timing issues of its own.

Patience, people, patience. TfL have said they have added the junction to their list for further consideration, and they recognise that there are multiple issues here. There is no reason to suppose they won't come up with an improved scheme which allows pedestrians to cross all at once. Indeed, as I said upthread, they are implementing just such systems elsewhere, with an all-stop phase against the traffic to allow pedestrians to cross in all directions unimpeded. However, that demands a redesign of traffic lights and road layout at an important junction on a major route. These things take time.

You may well be right but tfl were originally planning on taking the bars away without any changes to the junction. I'm not sure that I have that much faith in them doing the right thing.

I just came back across that junction and looked at the tiny strip whilst a huge pantechnicon swung around the corner.

The whole junction needs to be looked at and made far more pedestrian friendly and as someone said above maybe an Oxford Circus style crossing phase.

And maybe I'm being pessimistic but I wonder if they'll put traffic flow on the south circular ahead of improving the street scene of Forest Hill.

Given the number of car drivers I see turning right on the wrong side of the junction going towards the London Road it will be interesting to see what will happen if all of the railings are removed.

What do you mean by turning right on the wrong side of the junction? Because you are allowed to turn right into London Road from both lanes outside the station. Or are you referring to another part of the junction?

Today I saw someone go straight ahead up Dartmouth Road from the right hand lane (which you are not allowed to do) while someone was (quite rightly) turning right from the left hand lane. It was close!

This post was last modified: 03-03-2014 09:33 PM by rshdunlop.

I was once waiting in the middle of the crossing, coming from the station. I'm one of those naughty types that waits to the right of the island, so I'm not inside the railings (as I'm heading off down Devonshire Road). The traffic coming up the South Circular and waiting at the lights should therefore be behind me (if you imagine I'm facing the chippie). The point at which it's safe for me to cross the second half of the road is when the traffic coming down the South Circular is stopped, and the cars waiting at the lights outside the station can then turn right into London Road.

And yet one night one of the cars decided to turn up London Road by driving on the right hand side of the road, i.e. in front of me! It was a few cars back from the front - I suspect he was impatient and decided to find a faster way around than waiting for the cars in front to move. He just missed me, and it shocked me a lot. I was surprised to read Londondrz comment because it makes me think this wasn't a one off, but happens a lot - which is really worrying, whether or not they fix the railings.

Between the huge lorries just skimming the island as they turn the corner, and cars being impatient and driving on the wrong side of the road - there's more to be fixed about this junction than railings.

I may be wrong mighty mouse but I think Londondrz was referring to vehicles turning right from the left hand lane rather than going straight up Dartmouth hill. I think this is an allowed manoeuvre although it's really to allow the 185 bus to turn without having to get into the right hand lane from the bus stop.

It's a completely allowed manoeuvre, and not just for buses. There are arrows on the road indicating that you can both turn right and go straight ahead from the left hand lane. Furthermore, there is a sign just after the railway bridge that advises using both lanes to follow the South Circular.

Patience? This badly designed crossing is a long running issue.

The idea was to:

• Improve links for the Station to Horniman Museum and Library/Pools,
• Address severance caused by the South Circular (and the railway line),
• Generally improve the pedestrian environment and accessibility,

Unfortunately TFL is one of Boris' playthings and his aim is to keep the traffic flowing as priority No 1 - all other considerations secondary.
(Huzzah! shout the SE23 motoring club members.)

There is every reason to think that what tfl are likely to propose for this junction (if anything) will not address any of the aims of the framework.

TfL has been interested in keeping traffic flowing since long before Boris became the Mayor.

A lot of people are surprised by the legality of the right turn from the left lane outside the station - it's definitely not what you would expect given the road layout, but as rshdunlop says above (and has said before elsewhere on the forum) it's clearly marked as legal on the road and the signs before the bend.

What I've noticed is that having both lanes about to make that right turn and then immediately have to filter into one lane does cause a bit of jockeying.

I look forward to any constructive proposals to improve the whole layout, but short of expensive major work to build a bridge or a tunnel, I don't feel very optimistic of significant improvement. I would definitely support having a single continuous crossing outside the station, though.

I've seen what MightyMouse describes. It made me gasp in horror actually - luckily there was no traffic coming down the hill at the time, but there was no way for the driver to know that!

I had thought that it was a genuinely confused motorist though, rather than someone trying to skip the queue - there was a big 'diversion' sign positioned just in front of the pedestrian island pointing to the right. I could be wrong though.

Off topic slightly, but responding to a comment of Perryman's: "one of Boris' playthings and his aim is to keep the traffic flowing as priority No 1"

I really believe, and have done for a long while, that one of the best ways for him to do this would be to run a huge campaign with posters and radio adverts etc etc telling drivers to simply let other motorists in or out whenever possible, especially when a car needs to turn right into a road (which causes traffic to build up behind that car). If someone let them through, it would do them no harm and would keep traffic moving. It's not only good for traffic flow but would be so good for drivers state of mind (road rage). The trouble is the majority of drivers in London are just too ignorant in more ways than one. If they were prompted/asked to do it, it may just work.

I pride myself on how courteous I am on the roads, not so proud of my road rage at times however

Sorry for the late response. I meant driving around the wrong side of the traffic island against traffic coming down the London Road.

I used to spend a quite hour n the morning in FTF and this was a regular occurrence either be people not looking at the signs or just not giving a damb.

I am surprised there have not been more accidents.

Re turning right from the left hand lane, this is something I do almost every night, it really riles some right hand side drivers up but they need to apply more attention to road markings and less to their hooters.

Ha, I always turn right from the left hand lane too, just to show people how it's done.

What is really annoying is when somebody in the right lane decides to go straight on. That's not allowed.
And it would be nice if people in the left lane indicated when they are turning right.
I speak as somebody who often crosses Dartmouth Road at this junction.

You'll be pleased to know, Michael, I indicate that I'm turning right from before the station, so people know I really mean it and am not being cheeky, but purposeful!

I'm flabbergasted to hear that people swing around the pedestrian island to go up London Road. That is sheer madness.

This post was last modified: 04-03-2014 06:15 PM by rshdunlop.

Well the guard rails at the island between WHSmith and the Launderette seem to have been removed anyway.

I must say, it definitely feels much less cluttered now, and I didn't feel too concerned about traffic. It is really nice to be able to cross in a straight line, rather than wiggle around the railings. Interested to see what it is like during rush hour with heavy traffic (both cars and pedestrians).

Not a fan of this, as a gut feeling, but we'll see how it works.