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Pedestrian crossings: London Road junction - railing removal
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blushingsnail


Posts: 364
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #1
07-01-2014 01:59 PM

On Saturday I noticed some planning notifications on the pedestrian crossing opposite WH Smith. I think the proposals are to remove the railings on the pedestrian crossings (as TfL are doing elsewhere in London) but I didn't read them closely because I assumed I would find them online. But I can't find them - they're not on Lewisham's Planning webpages and I can't find them on TfL's website.

Has anyone read the proposals? Or does anyone know where I might find them online?

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #2
07-01-2014 03:09 PM

Lots of railings are being removed these days as they are believed to be a cause of more accidents and injuries than preventer.
When damaged by small collisions they compromise the flow and safety of pedestrians etc. So I believe are the findings.

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Fish Face


Posts: 135
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #3
07-01-2014 03:12 PM

I read them.
They are partially being removed

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #4
08-01-2014 07:38 AM

They have done this at Catford.
The pedestrian islands are quite exposed now.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #5
08-01-2014 08:20 AM

My picture of the notice might not be very helpful. I'm not sure which are planned for removal (red, blue or green). But this notice was attached to a red section.


Planning permission is not required but there is a reference to a TfL website that explains the motivation:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projects...25040.aspx
Which includes a nice video which I will try to place here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqc0VGew4ac[/youtube]



Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)
       

This post was last modified: 08-01-2014 08:23 AM by michael.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
08-01-2014 08:36 AM

I've worked out that the blue railings will be retained and the red will be removed. I'm not sure about the green, but I assume they will be removed as these are the most necessary.

Personally I welcome these changes as I always walk round the barriers, as I find they only make crossing the road more difficult. The remove of 'street clutter' in FH town centre is also to be welcomed, although much more could be done.

I'm not sure that it will make crossing the South Circular safer in this sharp corner/junction, but sometimes results are counter-intuitive and I suspect people at TfL understand what they are doing much better than I do.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
08-01-2014 09:34 AM

I've checked and similar recommendations were made in the Forest Hill Street Clutter Report from 2010, which can be viewed at: http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2010/02...eport.html

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Fish Face


Posts: 135
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #8
08-01-2014 10:34 AM

Coming from the Devonshire Road end, 99% of the time I'll cross where the railings are before getting to the lights (from the Hob side of the road).

It's one of the most frustrating crossings I've seen if you wait for the green man each time.

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Benderish


Posts: 41
Joined: Jun 2013
Post: #9
08-01-2014 09:14 PM

That's a really good article on de-cluttering the area Michael. As someone that's only been in Forest Hill for less than a year its good to see that quite a few of the recommendations made on the report have been made.

The still need to fix the pavement on Dartmouth Road though!!! Cursing

Good news that they are fixing up the railings on the roads too. I wonder if they are going to then sync up the pedestrian crossings so you can get across the whole road in one go otherwise you still face the problem of everyone trying to get on the islands with no protection from the railings..

This post was last modified: 08-01-2014 09:15 PM by Benderish.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #10
09-01-2014 10:14 AM

The removal will be interesting. Sitting having my morning coffee in FTF I see quite a few near misses when people cross before the crossing with traffic sweeping down the London Road and turning left by the station. The lights themselves dont take long to change but a lot of people dont realise that it is actually a pedestrian controlled crossing, the lights wont change unless you press the button.

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #11
09-01-2014 10:52 AM

I predict that removing the railings will see many more people doing my trick of crossing from the launderette to the Dartmouth Arms in one go - if you stay outside the railings in the island in the middle of London Road, the lights are in your favour to veer towards Dartmouth Road as you near the bank and then cross. Advanced pedestrians should try it. It's a winner.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
09-01-2014 10:57 AM

And the button is not particularly conveniently located if you are coming from London Road, and it doesn't help that the traffic light is more prominent than the pedestrian light, so when traffic light goes red, pedestrians forget that cars from Dartmouth Road get a chance before pedestrians.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #13
09-01-2014 12:27 PM

Quote:
I suspect people at TfL understand what they are doing much better than I do.


lol

Deliberately stacking up pedestrians on an unguarded strip of pavement in the middle of the S circ, where trucks are struggling to get round the corner sounds like a remarkably bad idea even for TfL.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #14
03-02-2014 03:11 PM

I raised some concerns about the crossing between the launderette and WHSmith, and got the following response today:

Quote:
Thank you for contacting us on 11 January 2014 with reference to the removal of pedestrian guard rails at the crossing of Devonshire Road in Forest Hill.

Thank you for your support for the removal of unnecessary street clutter.

Removal of the pedestrian guard rail at the crossing of Devonshire Road would open the crossing so that more people can use it. We have noted that with the current arrangement pedestrians do walk around the pedestrian guard rail and cross outside the staggered crossing. In addition, other customers using the crossing can sometimes be seen getting trapped on the carriageway, as the island is too crowded.

However, in light of your query we now feel that the junction would benefit more from a general/overall review rather than elements. Therefore we have taken the decision to leave the pedestrian guard rail in place at present because we feel that the benefit of not having the furniture on this island would be diluted by other factors.

Following your query we will add this junction to our programme for further investigation. At the current time we have a long programme of works; however I would hope these investigations to start later this calendar year.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 511
Joined: May 2012
Post: #15
03-02-2014 04:34 PM

Probably the right decision. It's scary how many people go charging across that junction in a desperate bid to catch the train when they see one coming in.

My hunch is that street furniture at least makes people think more about the fact that it's a busy junction with green men crossing signs and all that. Take away the railings and maybe it just looks less like a structured crossing and more like the free-for-all some people already assume it to be. (It's bad enough with all the people who come out of David's Road or Devonshire Road and go dashing through the traffic to the station.)

But I'm no expert - I'm just someone who doesn't want to have a pedestrian as a Rolls-Royce style bonnet ornament on my car.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #16
03-02-2014 04:48 PM

I think it is wise of TfL to review the junction as a whole rather than just removing the railings. I think the sequence of lights really needs reviewed. At the moment, the priority is all on the flow of traffic - there is always traffic moving somewhere at the junction. The green men fit in with that sequence. The islands allow this to happen. But it is hugely frustrating to pedestrians to get half way across the road and then wait for another green man to finish crossing. I'm forever standing in the middle facing the laundrette and trying to work out if it's safe to nip across. And people often start crossing when they see a light turning red, not realising another light is turning green and traffic is going to start coming at them from another angle. Which drivers among us have not taken the left-hand filter out of London Road only to find scurrying and startled pedestrians at the corner?

There was a similar (although less busy) set up at the Sydenham end of Mayow Road, with railings and staggered crossings. As part of the regeneration of Sydenham Road, all the railings were removed and the lights changed so that there is an 'all red' part of the sequence where no cars move and pedestrians can cross freely in whatever direction they like. It is so much better.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 511
Joined: May 2012
Post: #17
03-02-2014 05:16 PM

Those skip lorries reversing out of that junction into the yard behind William Hill scare the heck out of me too!

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #18
03-02-2014 05:41 PM

The Bell Green crossing also seems safer with the furniture removed (especially now they've junked that superfluous set of lights westbound that made traffic waiting outside the Tudor Livesey think it had a green) - but I doubt the FH one would.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #19
03-02-2014 05:53 PM

If the furniture AND the islands were removed (as was done on Mayow Road) with a green man to take you straight from one side to the other, it would be safer all round. Leaving people in the middle of the road, whether on a fenced-in island or not, is what we should be moving away from.

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Foresters


Posts: 207
Joined: May 2006
Post: #20
01-03-2014 01:28 PM

How about something like there is at Oxford Circus?

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