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Pedestrian accident at Sainsbury's crossing
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chdr


Posts: 1
Joined: Feb 2015
Post: #1
10-02-2015 07:43 PM

Really sad to see there was a pedestrian accident at the Sainsbury's crossing in London Road this afternoon. Happened just before we got there but those already there said a car hit a pedestrian at the crossing. We sincerely hope the chap was alright.
This is a very dangerous crossing. The pavement at the crossing opposite Sainsbury's is so very narrow. Many times I've walked in the road to make way for baby buggies and other pedestrians. The traffic does seem to go quite fast considering the narrowness and a couple of times when I've been crossing with my children, the traffic has not seen or could not stop in time for the lights and has sailed through. Can the pavement not be widened? Surely it would be better to expand the pavement at this section and sacrifice that section of the bus lane? Couldn't TFL or the council do what has been done in Lordship Lane with speed humps and widened pavements at the crossings?
Most important though is we really do hope the pedestrian is OK.

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Decker


Posts: 116
Joined: Nov 2014
Post: #2
10-02-2015 08:25 PM

Terrible to hear. Hope he's Ok.

I think it's just the nature of the south Circular. You have to have your wits about you and never cross without the lights.

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Mattfh


Posts: 25
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #3
10-02-2015 08:36 PM

I saw the incident as I was waiting at the pedestrian crossing at the time. There was standing traffic on the road leading towards the station and the man rushed over the crossing pushing a young boy in a buggy while the traffic lights were still green. They were struck on the opposite side of the crossing from Sainburys. It wasn't clear how serious his injuries were but he was still conscious, in pain and very shaken as was the little boy with him. They were both very lucky.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #4
11-02-2015 10:00 AM

Without sounding harsh, sounds like a bad decision rather than a bad crossing in this case. Hope all parties involved are ok, inc the drive who would no doubt be rather shaken.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #5
11-02-2015 10:55 AM

The old "probe the traffic with the baby buggy". Never a good idea. I wish them both a speedy recovery especially the young child.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
11-02-2015 11:05 AM

I can understand why some pedestrians choose to cross when the traffic comes to a standstill. I frequently see people drive through red lights when the pedestrian green man is showing.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 511
Joined: May 2012
Post: #7
11-02-2015 02:59 PM

Quote:
Without sounding harsh, sounds like a bad decision rather than a bad crossing in this case. Hope all parties involved are ok, inc the drive who would no doubt


Well said, Snazy. I also hope Mattfh is okay - can't be a pleasant experience seeing something like that happen.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #8
11-02-2015 06:24 PM

Indeed, hope you are not too shaken MattFH.

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Nick M


Posts: 35
Joined: Sep 2012
Post: #9
11-02-2015 11:13 PM

It seems extraordinary to me that a parent would risk the life of their child by pushing a buggy across traffic when the light is against them and in favour of the traffic, stationary or not. The child does not have the ability to make a decision, the adult does. The role of the adult is to protect the child.To put your child voluntarily in the path of danger to get across a road a minute or so quicker seems incredibly irresponsible. Imagine all of the scenarios worse than what actually occurred, bad enough as that was. Or am I missing something?

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #10
12-02-2015 01:33 PM

Sadly not an uncommon sight these days, some even send the probe out while texting or using their phone, so not even looking.

Seems more like a 'you better stop or you will run a kid over' kind of gesture these days. Thumbdown

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #11
12-02-2015 03:35 PM

The other day I was driving down London Road towards the station. I was turning left, and the left-turn filter light was green. All of a sudden, there was a small child crossing the road in front of me, from the central island at the lights. He stopped RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME in the middle of the road because he dropped something. I slammed on the brakes (luckily there was no one near enough behind to cause a shunt). The child looked up and scampered off, to catch up with whoever it was that was walking with him and had totally not noticed that he had fallen behind and was walking into moving traffic.

A horrible moment. The 'what if...?' doesn't bear thinking about.

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jaradras


Posts: 45
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #12
12-02-2015 03:43 PM

Some pedestrians tend to cross the road when it suits them ( time & convenience) rather than looking at safety implications. At this particular crossing the waiting time is excessive- the longer one has to wait the more likelihood of people crossing against the signal. I have observed this and happens frequently where people just walk casually into the road.

I have been driving for a car for over thirty years & in my opinion pedestrian behaviour to risk on roads has changed as a result of various campaigns & road design : reclaiming London's streets for pedestrians; roads being shut so that children can play ball games; streets shut for parties; raised road crossing; getting rid of barriers; promotion of walking etc. These measures have created a false sense of security for pedestrians.

Roads are for cars & they can be lethal weapons if both parties ( motorists & pedestrians) do not observe the rules. The onus is on the motorist to obey the rules of the road & for pedestrians to do as they please. Pedestrians in the UK are more likely to ignore traffic signs and signals than those in Europe - in UK there is no legal requirement to obey pedestrian signals, in other European countries there is legislation, giving the UK a poor safety record in terms of pedestrian collisions.

Maybe what we need are safety campaigns directed towards pedestrians ?
Remember the Green Cross Code in the 1970's ?

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #13
12-02-2015 09:20 PM

Quote:
At this particular crossing the waiting time is excessive- the longer one has to wait the more likelihood of people crossing against the signal.

Spot on.
If the lights were responsive, then the vast majority of pedestrians would wait.
These crossings are doubly dangerous as drivers do not expect anyone attempting to cross when they have the green signal, unaware that the lights are effectively and sometimes actually stuck.

This situation is no good for drivers either as many people now see little advantage in using a crossing and so make their way across at random points.

Given how badly these lights are configured, we'd all be better off with zebras.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #14
13-02-2015 08:56 AM

I agree, the wait at the lights at Sainsburys is very long. If I'm waiting there, I will look for an opportunity to cross before they turn red, especially if I know I've just missed it. Not through standing traffic though. obviously.

However, I wonder what the knock on effect further up the road would be if the wait time was shortened? When I first moved to FH fifteen years ago, the traffic coming up past the Horniman at peak times was much, much worse than it is now, and usually backed up at last to where the Harvester is (was). I would never have used the main South Circular between, say 4pm and 7pm, always taking the rat run through Devonshire Road, or even going via Honor Oak. It was that bad. Now it might be a bit slow at those times, but not enough to make taking a diversion worthwhile. I assume the fact that it's so much better is down to fine tuning of the lights between there and FH.

I'm not, of course, saying that traffic movement is more important than pedestrian safety. Just that making adjustments is a fine art.

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michael


Posts: 3,215
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #15
13-02-2015 10:15 AM

I don't think this is a safe crossing to half cross, however tempting that may be. I use this crossing a lot but I know from experience that it is not possible to properly see cars coming up London Road if you are crossing from the Sainsbury's side.

It is an annoying wait, but it is no longer than other crossings in Forest Hill. the big difference is that there is no pedestrian refuse (as there is further up the road before Honor Oak Road).

I would suggest that the simplest way to improve pedestrian safety (short of expecting people to wait 2 minutes for a green man) would be to have a pedestrian refuge in the centre of the road. Unfortunately this would mean removing the bus lane (not a huge loss in my opinion).

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #16
13-02-2015 10:43 AM

That's a fair point, Michael, about when it's safe to cross. I only cross without the aid of the lights if crossing towards Sainsburys. The sight lines there are good enough that you can see if the road is clear enough to cross.

The bus lane is a bit of hotchpotch. It's broken up by the parking bays and other bits and bobs and the only bit that buses rally use is the actual pull-in at the stop.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #17
13-02-2015 12:33 PM

Can we just take a moment and reflect on some of the suggestions as above. When we wait to cross the crossing at Sainsbury's it takes no more than 60 seconds from pressing the button to crossing.

Are we all so pressured for time we cant wait that long?

Chill folks, none of us lead lives that are so important that we cant wait to cross safely for sixty seconds.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #18
13-02-2015 01:41 PM

Well said Londondrz... 60-80 seconds. Im sure the wait for an ambulance is probably a bit longer. Then there is the wait to be admitted, seen in A&E, found a bed, get a day for the operation, physio....

Why wait 60-80 seconds, its a ridiculous amount of time to wait! Rofl

I understand the point people are making, but I have said it before and will say it again, crossings are not just decided by the roll of a dice. In this instance someone walked out, with their child no less, and was hit by a car who had "right of way" . Yet some how its turned into a drivers are dangerous and the crossings are useless debate.

   

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michael


Posts: 3,215
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #19
13-02-2015 02:26 PM

Snazy Wrote:
Yet some how its turned into a drivers are dangerous and the crossings are useless debate.

I don't think anybody on this thread has actually blamed the driver, there has been a lot of criticism of the victim which makes me feel uncomfortable as, despite having the report of an eye-witness, there may have been other factors to consider (I don't know what they might be, but I don't like the blame game focusing on the victim any more than I would want it focusing on the motorist).

I have suggested that this is a crossing that could be improved. Last year TfL 'improved' this crossing by removing all the pavement fences. Has this made the crossing safer? Has it reduced accidents? Perhaps it is too early to reach a conclusion and perhaps this and other incidents are completely unrelated.

What I would argue is that pedestrians deserve town centres to be safe and easy to access. I believe the crossing points here, and outside the station, and the lack of pedestrian phase at Honor Oak Road, and the lack of crossing points on Dartmouth Road, and poor layout on Perry Vale, all make Forest Hill unfriendly to pedestrians. Let me add to that the narrowness of some sections of pavement - outside William Hill and at the crossing on London Road (opposite Sainsburys), we have pizza delivery bikes driving along the pavements in some places, and skip lorries reversing and post office vans parked across the pavement outside WH Smith. All of this makes Forest Hill less friendly for pedestrians than most town centres in London these days.

When streets are designed with little concern for pedestrians, it is not surprising that some pedestrians feel they have to take risky behaviour - risks are inherently built into the streets. But please be careful crossing London Road.

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Nick M


Posts: 35
Joined: Sep 2012
Post: #20
13-02-2015 04:02 PM

I think we can in fact afford to be critical when a child is involved. Adults can do what they want and make as many poor decisions as they want, and take responsibility for them, but a child cannot. The welfare of the child is paramount. From what was stated by the eye-witness it seemed the parent acted without the welfare of the child as the paramount concern. I think this is a separate argument to whether the lights last too long/forest hill is too dangerous for pedestrians etc.

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