Roz: Okay, fine. But this is hardly the first time you have seen a potentially salvageable situation only as utterly hopeless, is it? Last time, it turned out that where there was a will, there was eventually a way.

From reading through the recent posts, it seems that even those who unequivocally support the event, as well as many of those who have doubts, seem to have realised that there is be a need for a 'third way'. This is known as attempting to be constructive.

I can accept that you are going to continue to insist the whole thing (and anything remotely like it) be completely banned. Just accept that I will continue to refuse to see this as a zero-sum issue.

That's it. I'm out of this thing until we hear some concrete news from the Horniman or the organisers.

Well said Red 67! And Michael, I'm surprised at your lack of maturity given you chair the FH Society. This is of real concern to those who live in the immediate area of the park. It's not a racist issue at all. Rick Stein can shove off to Pechkam if he causes the same amount of chaos.

With a few exceptions what "and another thing" nonsense.

We should celebrate these events and have more. Do people know how tedious and suburban it sounds raising concerns about fire engines, traffic, parking, crime, too packed etc etc etc? Why live in south London if you can't put up with events that generate such energy and wide appeal once in a while? For me it was a great event and mildly exciting to see traffic jams on roads that usually see 10 cars per hour.

Hi Red67. Can you advise where the official figures came from?

Thinking about it this event has huge potential. It brings people in from far and wide given some of the parking permits we saw in the cars around us, and it has the potential to become much much bigger. And so it should. It could spread into the areas of the park that were underused on Sunday and with council backing into the Triangle and how about...
into Westwood Park, Horniman Drive, Liphook crescent and Ringmore Rise. Flatbed trucks with sound systems could travel around in a big circuit. Tewkesbury Avenue could be lined with fixed sound systems and jerk barbeques in the front gardens. There would be no complaints because the roads would be closed to traffic.

Bring it on in 2010 - the Tewkesbury Lodge Carnival. It will be MAHUSIVE!

Who wants in on the organising committee??

Fantastic idea!! - lets extend the festival down London Road, block off the South Circular for a day, all traffic on a redirect around Syndenham, Honor Oak and Dulwich, I'm sure no one will mind being inconvenienced - after all it's only one day in 365!

Eventually gingernuts yes, I see your vision. You're clearly well up for the carnival but one step at a time.

Can we stretch it over a bank holiday weekend? At the risk of sounding patronising...or in proportion, depending on how many arms you're waving about manically...that would leave a clear 362 days of the year for people to get over it. Huzzah!

Yes, why not extend it to cover the whole weekend - but I wouldnt want it to clash with the Notting Hill Carnival as I wouldnt be able to attend both.

I expect next year to be double the size - so we should start planning for major road closures now! I'm sure Michael will support this idea as he understands the benefits this will bring to our high street. Non-Carnival traffic can easily be re directed around the back streets of Forest Hill and Sydenham - the triangle could be used for parking - the procession could start from the park and go down London Road and up to Kirkdale. We might even be able to incorporate Louisa House in some way. This is clearly a massive South London event that we should exploit to the full. I would also be in favour of charging a ?10 fee for entry to the park - perhaps a known band could play? or a compulsory but smaller charitable donation (say ?5).

I would also advocate doing something similar another weekend - How about a bikers festival with metal or indie music, Napalm Death in the Park!!! Hornimans Rocks.

It could be huge, bikes, birds, booze. Forest Hill is on the map - Yey!!

Gingernuts your bile makes you a creative genius; There are amazing ideas in your last rant. Hornimans Rocks & Laughs - a weekend of best of British Indipendent Music and Comedy. I am sure The Hob would be delighted to take part.

Bile? I'm all for organsised, well managed events. I'm just full of ideas me.

I'd love to see more events held in Forest Hill, but in perspective of the space available.

I vaguely remember the Sydenham festivals from my distant youth, when Sydenham Road was closed to traffic and floats travelled between (what I suspect were) Home Park and Wells Park. Lots of people lined the route and enjoyed the festival.

But that was 30 years ago. Today we can only dream of men on the moon, supersonic air travel, local shops, and festivals in fields smaller than Wiltshire.

Maybe it is still a bit soon, but I hope that once everybody has had a chance to air their views and possibly listen to some other views, that we can find a way forward. This might mean we have to lose the most popular event in the Forest Hill calendar, or it might mean that we ask the authorities to find ways to control the event next year. Fortunately we have almost a year to find the right solution and I don't really think this is rocket science.

Actually I suspect the time frame is much shorter than a year given all the plans and organisation that such events require and the various financial commitments that have to be made. I would put it at 6 months myself.

And for the record I am not seeking to get the event 'banned' just moved to a more sensible location, as I simply do not think that tinkering around the edges with marshals will be sufficient if the majority of people are still going to drive and need to park in spaces which do not exist. I see nothing wrong with Crystal Palace- it seems a very suitable venue and I know similar events have been held there before. And its fairly easy to get there from Forest Hill.

What also seems to be missed in the discussion is that such heavily attended events are not that inclusive as most people with young children will not want to take them there as its difficult for them to run around safely without being trampled on. This was our experience last year and the reason for leaving early, and our main reason for not planning to go again this year. It is not fun for young kids or their parents , but I suppose even these groups will be accused of threatening the economic future of FH by their inflexibility and lack of tolerance.

We took our kid and it was fine Ros, there were people from all over the place at the festival, it was inclusive, you just dont want it here because you don't like it (for whatever reason that may be) and because you have a bit of trouble with your car during the day.

If they put it on a Saturday the cross South London train (L Bridge to L Vic via Clapham) would deal with a lot more of the people coming from South West London.

Is facetiousness ( and also inaccuracy) the new religion then, RLB?

PS We went two years running to the Cook- Out- so clearly thats evidence of not liking it.

I fail to see why people who enjoy the cookout have an issue with it being relocated to somewhere bigger and better suited. I would have thought this would suit the many who were driving around for hours looking for non-existent parking places, felt their little uns might get lost or crushed underfoot, plus those who wanted the music turned up!

I have no issue with jumping on a 63 or taking the train to Crystal Palace to attend this amazing South London event. Why should others?

BD really enjoyed the day, even being a sandal wearing bearded vegan who had to enjure breathing in cremated animals.

His only gripe was that he did not order his rice and beans earlier, and therefore miss the large queues that built up after mid afternoon.

It reminded him a bit of Woodstock (not the culture, but the crowds). No doubt people will still be talking about it in forty years

As I was situated close to the bouncy castle and inflatable slide, I was in a position to see hundreds of young children enjoying themselves.

The park was very full with people sitting everywhere, the queues for food were long (although not at 1:30pm when I ate), the music was not loud (which meant they were able to have two stages for people to enjoy different music in different parts of the park). I heard two annoucements of lost children through the whole afternoon - which is probably to be expected.

The Horniman can just about manage with 20,000 people (if that is how many people were there). If the event were to get much bigger it would need more space, either by spreading out the food stalls closer to London Road and into Horniman Triangle or by deserting Forest Hill.

How does Blackheath handle 80,000 people for the fireworks? Simple, they close off the roads and tell people to travel by train. Does that upset the locals or are arrangements made for them? I don't know.

Parking could be handled better, with a special bus from Savacentre, Perry Vale car park, Girton Road in Sydenham and Manor Mount. All of which are free car parks on a Sunday. My theory is that sensible parking provision could be provided and working with the police and TfL arrangements could be made to keep traffic flowing and to avoid illegal parking. This could be coupled with clear instructions to attendees to walk or use public transport.

Police should also be consulted regarding best practise if the event became too full.

But I would still hope to keep the Jerk Cookout in Forest Hill if possible. Personally I have faith that if they are involved properly that this can be a great event for Forest Hill and bring more people to our park, museum, swimming pool, and town centre all through the year.
Couldn't we try it once more, with the police and TfL cooperating, before chasing them out of the area?

Michael, children enjoying themselves is not the same as worried parents. When I was young I could enjoy myself regardless of how concerned my parents might have been (sorry mum)!! If people are deciding not to attend because it's too busy, isnt that in itself a problem?

It's clear that this event is getting bigger and bigger each year, what numbers might we be talking about for 2010? How many might not bother because they couldnt park this year? Do the organisors have any idea? There could be safety concerns (busy road) if the event was extended into the Triangle. Is this really the answer?