I would have said 'the bigger picture for the whole neighbourhood' was that the introduction of a place to buy fresh fruit, veg and meat on our high street along with a free cash machine would be hugely beneficial to the neighbourhood, with it it would definately bring more foot fall in with the by product being higher visibilty (and with it custom) to the rest of the parade.
There is already a large loading bay outside the proposed site and Sainsbury's have provided indepth paperwork on its delivery and transportation process to the council not to mention what their community team presented to the public/council meeting a while back.
I have lived in the area a few years, however I am unsure of the traffic calming measures you mention HOPcat but I do know that the majority of deliveries will take place outside busy times and would not really, in the grand scheme of things, affect the high street much. However, it is a highstreet after all and increased noise to some extent, deliveries and all the other things which come hand in hand with the day to day running of a central parade of shops should always be expected when comparing it with side or back streets. It is all part and parcel surely.
The building of houses, flats or offices is not a new phenomenon, especially around these parts, where would we all be living today if that never happened?
HOPcat I'm not sure if you went to the meeting about this but they said the plans which list the development of flats was for the same number currently in existence and not more.
Hi Decords and Cheeky,
On the flats issue, they are being "reconfigured" and there is to be a two-part extension to the rear, which as far as I can see will overlook the new mews houses. The developers of that scheme may not be too pleased about this as they have put a lot into making it as attractive as possible and getting it to blend in with what is already there.
I'm not against new development, honestly. But, it needs to be sensitive and to meet what people here really need, as opposed to what developers think will bring in the most money for them.
Yes, I know that our shopping parade is short of fresh meat, fish, and to some extent, vegetables, but is a big Sainsbury's Local really the right solution? What I'd really love to see would be a shop or shops like Peter James in Ewhurst Road, which offers proper butcher's meat, good frozen fish and fresh vegetables, along with cheese, stock, goose fat and so on. If Sainsbury's comes in to the parade, inevitably the cost of shop rentals will rise, so the likelihood of any further independent food shops coming in will be reduced. I did go to the meeting, and I was not convinced by the claimed benefits. Sorry.
HOPcat - I too would love to see small shops like the butcher in Ewhurst Road on HOP but in reality they would be shut by the time I get home from work so a Sainburys local would suit my needs perfectly. I am sorry if this sounds selfish but the days when people can shop during the day are long gone and the community has to adapt.
Re the flats, no it is probably not up the standard of the other new development.
As for Sainsburys being the right solution:
* Yes, Peter James is wonderful. I, along with everyone I have spoken to about this, would love to have the shop there that you describe. If you know someone who is prepared to open up such a shop, please speak up and I think you will find huge support for this.
* Peter James, wonderful though it is, is now only open 3 days a week. The local demographic has lots of young professional people who would dearly love to get a few groceries on their way home from work. Even if such a shop were to open, it would not replace a Sainsburys local and vice versa - the crossover in product line is practically zero.
* There is an argument, which was put forward at the meeting, that a Sainsburys would increase footfall to the other businesses and make the whole parade more attractive to business generally. I happen to subscribe to this point of view, even though I am not a fan of Sainsburys. I know people who agree and who don't too and the truth is we will not really know for sure until it happens. In the meantime, we have empty premises with no other realistic prospect of filling them. If, like me, you would rather not shop at Sainsburys, then I do not see why you would have a preference for a row of empty shops.
In summary, I would agree that a Sainsburys Local is probably not the right solution. However, in the absence of any other proposals, it may very well be the best solution we can expect right now.
Hi Poppy and lacb,
No I don't think people are being selfish in wanting a shop that serves their particular needs. Any shops of the type I'd like to see would need to open late on at least two weekday evenings.
Of course I don't want to see empty shops on the parade. But, have you considered that were a Sainsbury's to come onto Honor Oak Park, several existing businesses might well close down? Because having a Sainsbury's is likely to encourage the owners to put the cost of renting or leases up considerably, who is out there who will want to come in? Do we want more multiples, such as Boots? Or, do we want independent operations such as Jumping Bean and Neroli?
Bear in mind, too, that a Sainsbury's Local will only remain in the area for as long as Head Office deems it profitable. Remember what happened to the one attached to the petrol station on Stansted Road? What took its place eventually is OK but is not offering the same degree of usefulness.
Finally, it's easy for those of us living in a nice quiet street well away from the high street to find the idea of a quite large supermarket very attractive. Those who have lived in or around the high street for years, and have enjoyed a relatively quiet environment, are the people who will have to take the full force of disruption, early-morning deliveries, traffic congestion and parking. If the Sainsbury's does go ahead, then these issues will need some really hard work to resolve in everyone's best interests.
I think everyone welcomes quality local independents like Jumping Bean and Neroli. I think it is instructive that their business is in no way threatened by an emerging Sainsburys Local - which can hardly be called a quite large supermarket BTW. If their business are to be affected at all, it is only likely to be positive.
Yes, some existing businesses will, if things stay largely as they are, be impacted by the arrival of Sainsburys. But consider this - if the shop you describe, and we all wish for, already existed, would you consider the arrival of Sainsburys to be a threat to it or a boon? I, for one, would continue to shop at the independent - both it and the the supermarket can coexist if they are well run.
I would argue that the only reason any businesses could be adversely affected is if they are either not supplying what the local market, ie customers, really want or they are not doing so in an efficient manner. As it happens, I think that at least 2 businesses that some would consider threatened are in an ideal position to capitalise on this development if they are only prepared to develop their business model.
As for the lease rates issue, these are already going up anyway and will do so owing to factors quite outside of Sainsburys coming or not, e.g. changes to the local demographic. Also, it is quite interesting to note the existing businesses that have a competitive advantage by owning the freehold!
I am sorry if there are people worried about the nuisance of living above a shop, but am a little suspect that anyone should expect that to be a quiet location anyway. (No I don't live above a shop now but yes I have done in the past.)
Am very glad that these issues are being aired and debated - sincere thanks for that.
Peter James is fab and is round the corner from me. He has now re-opened after being in hospital for a bit.
He is open from 7 until 7 Thurs - Saturday. Which is pretty late. Means I can either pick stuff up early of on Friday on the may home from work.
I think what will probably happen is that some Honour Oak residents quite natrually will push back on the proposals but hopefully the planning process can iron out these concerns so that those other residents that want a supermarket can get one. I do not know enough about the planning process to know whether "the issues" (whatever they are) can be addressed by repeatedly rejecting all proposals put forward or whether these can be resolved through consultation - I think the term is called "planning gain" or something?
Rather than repeated rejections it might be better to approach this along the lines of what might be regarded as an acceptable proposal, so the whole thing is not left in limbo for ages. Voicing outright objections (or even approvals if they ignore people's concerns) are likely to be counter-productive and polarise the debate (I can just envisage the planning officer at the next meeting, thinking "here we go again...."). We owe this to the vast silent majority of Honour Oak who clearly are not really that engaged in the planning process or read this forum. So, what are the concerns exactly? I do not think that opposition to huge conglomerates or "change" in general are really going to be "deal breakers" as far as the planning is concerned, so someone who really cares about Honour Oak needs to carefully set out exactly what it is they are against, otherwise no-one will listen to them.
Hampstead village has a Tesco's local and despite the local uproar, it is thriving (and causes traffic chaos, especially with the bus route when deliveries are being made). The reason I mention this is because if Hampstead can't block it we probably can't block a Sainsburys local in Honour Oak.
Also, if the empty shops are up for rental then surely those landlords are losing out big time and need to revise the price they have on offer? Or are they waiting for the Sainsbury's to be built, hoping that some other businesses are attracted to the area (that in itself is a gamble)? The high rents certainly explain the asronomical prices in the deli? Anyway, I am sure the landlords will do what's best for them and not for us, so where is the debate on the landlords offering a fair rent? Or the impact leaving this application in limbo will have to the row of shops as a result of the stance the landlords are taking?!
When I lived off Balham High Road a Tesco's local petrol station certainly did no harm to local grocers who seemed to thrive in conjunction with it. That said, the food on offer in those grocers was far better than what is currently up for grabs along Honour Oak Park! And the price wasn't too bad. I wonder why?!
One concern I will make direct to Sainsbury's (if I get time) is making it very loud and clear to Sainsbury's that they should run the HO branch more like their Forest Hill branch and less like their Sydenham megastore. I simply walked round in awe whilst in the Sydenham Sainsburys, looking at the complete waste of retail space that was being presented in front of me. What that place needs is an enema!
I took this picture just after 18:00 yesterday when I got off the train on my way home from work. It beggars belief in my opinion how anyone can be opposed to a Sainsbury's local opening up when looking at the sad state of our high street.
Visible units on the left:
empty, empty, closed, closed, closed, closed
Visible units on the right:
empty, estate agent, empty, empty, empty, funeral parlour, closed, closed, estate agent, Jumping Bean.
I have to say I'm becoming increasingly in favour of a Sainsbury's local. I was concerned it would have a detrimental effect on current businesses but I've realised that isn't true at all.
A few days ago, I wanted to get some nice things from Hills and Parkes for a birthday lunch. But, because I needed to pick up some other bits, too - like chicken, fish, loo roll and washing powder etc - I went to Sainsbury's in Forest Hill instead, had a coffee in St David's and bought a present for my friend in Bunka.
Had there been a Sainsbury's Local in HOP - Hills and Parkes would have got my business. So would the Honor Oak Supermarket for their Mr Lawrence wines. I would have stopped for a coffee in Try or Hopscotch and bought my present in Jumping Bean.
Businesses are missing out on custom because there isn't a central focus in our high street. I think a Sainsbury's local would provide that.
....and that is what the majority of people do Hoona, why people can't see that is beyond me. My other half had to stop off at London Bridge M&S to get our dinner for the evening, without a doubt we would have spent money on our high street had their been anything available.
Shimmy sister, if you click on the link BarCar posted, then scroll to the bottom of the page, there is a link to where you can add your comments to the council.
I am in support of this application, I think it will boost the existing shops rather than kill them. Although some shops may need to evolve in terms of products, customer focus etc.
For me the goal has to be to make the people who turn right from the station routinely to start to turn left therefore increasing the footfall, money spent on the high street instead of people using local infrastructure without contributing to the area.
At Crofton Park there is both a Budgeons and a Co-Op (both of which are probably larger than the proposed Sainsbury local in HoP). Local shops and restaurants survive there. Which suggests to me that a Sainsbury Local will not devastate existing outlets. I appreciate the concern re delivery lorries in a delivery area, and I certainly don't expect a small Local to provide a massive choice re fresh meat etc, but overall the pros do outweigh the cons.
On the pic there might be a couple more shops open on a night other than Monday, but it still would not be great.
A small cheer for the new Try opening in the day / Monday.
I agree - it is interesting to see the streams of people coming out of the station with bags from M&S and other supermarkets up town. Getting them on the parade means it will be busier they will shop more - pick up gifts, flowers, have a drink / bite to eat. I know there is an issue about the Honor Oak Supermarket and the Off Licence and others - they will need to rethink what they stock and highlight what offers they have. Have never been a fan of the off licence, fridges not working, people not friendly and the shop pretty shabby. They will have to improve if they are to survive.
HOPcat, we are in the midst of a devastating recession. Your argument would be a reasonable one if the independent shops you wish to see on the high street were actually interested. They're not. This isn't 2007. With due respect, you have to get real.
Search
Help
