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Big accident on Kemble Road Tues 1st Nov
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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #1
01-11-2011 11:48 AM

While walking the dogs the morning I saw what was left of a rather nasty 4 car smash on Kemble at the junction of Loxton.

Pictures and my guess at what happened on my blog http://michaelsnasdell.blogspot.com/2011...l.html?m=0

When I walk up this road on a daily basis I have to say it is alarming the speeds that people travel up this road, swerving about to avoid the speed cushions etc. I was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #2
01-11-2011 01:19 PM

Bloody Hell! I cycle down Kemble (and turn right into Loxton) every morning and I hate that junction - although I cycle in the middle of the road with my arm stuck out for most of the short stretch of Kemble so I may at least be acting as traffic calming to cars behind me...

What time was this - I was on the road at about 8:20ish this morning and didn't notice anything.

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Snazy


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Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #3
01-11-2011 01:32 PM

I know, quite a worry eh! I have added to the blog a diagram of start and finish points of the cars, by my reckoning anyway. Maybe either if the 2 residents whos cars were hit will know better.

I come out of Loxton with the dogs quite regularly so its a worry for me too. Not uncommon to see cars emerge without stopping though.

As for time frame, your time narrows it down somewhat. I was there about 9.20-9.30 and it was all finished with no owners with the cars anymore, so would guestimate about 9am. By 10am people were back with the cars taking photos.

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sillytilly


Posts: 25
Joined: Apr 2011
Post: #4
01-11-2011 01:41 PM

AMFM I cycle regularly around the area as well, I agree people drive way to quickly... I have nearly been knocked off my bike a number of times by people not looking and pulling out.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #5
01-11-2011 03:52 PM

Who could this be reported to for further attention. Might be unwanted attention for the residents I realise, but at the same time todays example was an eye opener.

I wonder if there were any injuries from the Mini or Saab.

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blushingsnail


Posts: 364
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #6
01-11-2011 04:33 PM

Very interesting post Snazy, especially as 'Perry Vale North' or whatever it's called is supposed to be a 20mph zone. I suggest contacting the three local councillors (I think one of them actually lives in Kemble or Colfe).

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #7
01-11-2011 04:39 PM

Thank you. I thought it was about time I posted something of relevance Smile
It should indeed be highlighted to someone, not only because of the severity of it, but also as a perfect example of how speed cushions dont slow traffic... In fact they just make it drive down the middle of the road.

Hope all the innocent parties make claims on their insurance without penalty.

Interesting if one of the councillors do live down there

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JohnPaschoud


Posts: 6
Joined: Jan 2011
Post: #8
01-11-2011 05:57 PM

I do live near there - but I didn't see the incident this morning. When I drive in the Perry Vale North 20mph zone (and all the other 20mph residential zones) I do keep my speed within the limit of 20mph. I hope everyone else does too. Sometimes this seems to cause some inconvenience to other drivers behind me.

But it's difficult to find measures that will force all drivers to observe the limits, without a permanent Police presence on every road (for which the officers involved would expect to get paid), or physical measures like barriers that would cause great inconvenience to residents. Suggestions most welcome!

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #9
01-11-2011 06:05 PM

Agreed John, its not easy to make people observe the speed limits. However in certain cases, like Kemble, and on my own road Church Rise, the speed cushions have almost become part of the challenge to speeders now.
I am yet to manage it, but one day I plan on setting a video camera up at the bottom of Church Rise on the island, and getting footage of the wreckless way people travel down the road, swerving in and out to get the best route over the cushions. In some cases travelling onto the total opposite side of the road.

There is no perfect solution, and I realise that full length speed humps can obstruct emergency vehicles from making progress. But in some cases it would be safer to have NO speed cushions, so at least the vehicle travel in a straight line. Maybe concentrating more on raised junctions at places like Loxton and Kemble.

At the end of the day its the mentality of the driver that counts, cant change that too quickly.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #10
02-11-2011 01:51 PM

Some very good points here Snazy.
Speed cushions are at best pointless and at worst dangerous.

They are the political compromise position between proper road width humps and nothing at all. And so achieve nothing.

I quite like proper road humps, but they are not effective against station wagons, and slow up emergency vehicles.

I also like speed cameras, but public opinion is so set against them, probably because they work. But I guess there are legitimate privacy concerns.

I'd be curious to know how well the smillie neon face as works on Perry Rise. I admit I am sceptical, but it gives positive reinforcement to good drivers, and publicly shames the speeders.
At the very least, hopefully it records the numbers of speeders and the range of speeds so the police know the extent of the problem.

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JohnPaschoud


Posts: 6
Joined: Jan 2011
Post: #11
02-11-2011 03:21 PM

I also happen to think that speed cameras (with automatic number plate recognition and ticketing) are probably one of the most effective ways of enforcing any speed limits.

The technologist in me (but not a specialist in this particular field) has been amazed for some years that no version of camera seems to have yet been developed that's legally watertight (i.e. prosecutions or fixed penalties have a low rate of successful challenges), and more economic than road humps of any sort. I don't share the privacy concerns about them - unless we go down a path that leads to drivers having a right to be anonymous and remove number plates, on roads that are public shared places.

The 'smiley face' device does seem to be a fairly effective compromise. They are easily portable (they just need a mains power take-off from a street lamp) and I believe the one that was in Perry Rise has now been moved. If they recorded the speeds measured over a period that would be a good way of monitoring effectiveness - but I suspect they don't. I'm fairly sure they don't include the ability to photograph or record numbers of speeding drivers (because it wouldn't be sound as evidence to prosecute); but I could be wrong about that.

I will try asking the Council highways guys for their borough-wide strategy for deciding where to put these, and whether/how they monitor the effectiveness of each deployment.

I'll also suggest putting one, at least for a time, on Perry Vale outside the station entrance.

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #12
02-11-2011 04:38 PM

This report here which I have to admit does not appear entirely unbiassed, suggests that cameras cost 50k each to install and the same to run annually. Even if the real figures are half of these, they don't come cheap. I seem to recall Lewisham Council quoting 500 as the cost of installing a road hump so it is easy to see why they are an attractive solution for the Highways Department, even if they are hated by drivers.

Presumably the 'running cost' of a speed camera includes the cost of processing the offenders, handling their driving licences, chasing the non-payers etc, but it would only seem financially viable to use speed cameras where they are going to catch a lot of people. Clearly there are diminishing returns. If there is one instead of every road hump, they are going to cost a lot and catch almost no-one!

Even in areas where there are lots of cameras - think the A23 Brixton Road or the A20 Sidcup Road - drivers accelerate and brake between cameras with consequent adverse effects. And, as the article suggests, speed in excess of the speed limit (as distinct from excessive speed for the conditions), is a factor in only about 10% of accidents.

Personally, I think the answer is driver education. Some drivers may only be 'educated' by traffic police who can issue tickets for all types of bad driving, not just speeding, and can confiscate cars, and perhaps other assets from repeat offenders as well as disqualification.

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Snazy


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Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #13
02-11-2011 04:38 PM

Glad we are all on the same page here. Even if there were a scheme where ANPR was used to record the registrations of the offending vehicles, and a list be made and published somewhere for public viewing. No driver details, just a vehicle and reg. Never can tell how many family members might apply pressure to persistant offenders. Would also be lovely to have some sort of log to be used for reference for the police.

There is no invasion of privacy with ANPR triggered by speed, its quite simple, dont want to be on it, DONT SPEED.

At the same time, its a shame nothing can be done about the ignorance of some pedestrians too. Walking infront of a car, speeding or not, does NOT ensure you safe passage across the road. Neither would a crossing of any sort. Plenty of people are hit on crossings, and I alone have almost been hit by 3 cars on the crossing outside the Co-Op, once by aCo-Op lorry! All jumping bright red lights.

At least a chicane would narrow the road for pedestrians to spend less time in the road, and well as slow the vehicles down enough. A parking enforcement camera would also be handy, especially for when Crystal Halls have an event on, and people park anywhere they please.

The whole situation leaves a lot to be desired really, but the only way forwards is compromise, and common sense by all parties.

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Snazy


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Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #14
02-11-2011 04:48 PM

Sorry, just realised this was posted on the wrong thread. Blush

However some of it still remains valid, especially the comments about ANPR.
Another idea would be resident operated speed camera's are as done in some rural areas. Information gathers is passed on to the police.

Even if a traffic unit just arranged with residents of affected streets to spend an hour or so on the street with residents, lasering cars, and getting a true idea of the speeds people travel down our roads. Then residents would know what a speeding car actually looked like, and the motorists would be aware that something is being done.

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JohnPaschoud


Posts: 6
Joined: Jan 2011
Post: #15
02-11-2011 07:01 PM

Quote:
Even if a traffic unit just arranged with residents of affected streets to spend an hour or so on the street with residents, lasering cars, and getting a true idea of the speeds people travel down our roads. Then residents would know what a speeding car actually looked like, and the motorists would be aware that something is being done.


This can be arranged by the Police Safer Neighbourhood Team for a ward, if a few residents of a street contact them. I'm happy to support any reasonable request made in Perry Vale.

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Erekose


Posts: 534
Joined: May 2010
Post: #16
02-11-2011 09:53 PM

As a resident of Kemble Road and someone who has complained to Lewisham Highways on several occasions regarding the speed of traffic on the road I have to say it was only a matter of time.
I have pointed out to Highways that the fact they have fully humped Colfe Road has pushed more traffic down Kemble Road and that thier speed cushions have no effect whatever on the speed of traffic. Snazys suggestion of a chicane is a useful one but I recall being told that the emergency services wish Kemble Road to be kept clear of traffic calming as it is one of their their preferred routes (why else would it not have been humped properly when the area was 'calmed'). Oddly Highways did not respond to my last letter about this - maybe they have grown bored with my fan mail...maybe I will write to them ponting to this thread and suggesting that speed seems to have been a major factor in this accident.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #17
03-11-2011 01:26 PM

John, thats great news, daft question but do you know the SNT contact for Kemble and Church Rise? I think a rush-hour appearance of market police cars on these streets and other would have a positive impact on the motorist using it, and could be an education to the residents too. I will certainly get the ball rolling for CR.

Thank you for that.

Erekose, for Kemble I would personally suggest quite an aggressive raised junction for Kemble/Loxton. Even an emergency service vehicle would or should be slowing for the junction, if not the end of the road by that point. A full road of humps is just a dream these days, and it is understandably avoided. However this should not stop the consideration of well thought out and placed humps like at the said junction.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #18
03-11-2011 04:41 PM

I have called the SNT, I have spoken to the PCSO's on the street asking them to spend 15 minutes outside my daughters school in the morning to stop the parents who dont care stopping on the zig zags outside the school. This is over the last 6 months.

To date, nothing!

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #19
03-11-2011 04:47 PM

They had a great crackdown on that outside Christchurch a year or so back, made a proper impression then.
Hopefully some dialogue with the local traffic police will have an impact on rat runners.
I have no objection to large volumes of traffic using the road as a cut through, as long as they are respectful of the residents and keep their speed down.

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