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East London Line
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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #61
21-12-2007 08:02 PM

Foresters Wrote:
Dream scenario would be to have the fast trains stopping at Forest Hill then straight to LBG (or, better still Charing Cross!) - and the same on the way back.


There is at least one train that goes fast through Brockley and HOP to FH and that's quite enough. You can imagine the HOPers smiling and waving cheerily as you sail past in your seat (an undreamed of luxury for us) on your fast train, while we freeze on the platform. I don't think so!! Long may you continue to dream - and dream only.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #62
21-12-2007 10:16 PM

Thanks for your post AE. I had not properly read this section of the RUS (or maybe I was concentrating on other sections), but it highlight some of the problems with the document as a whole.

Anyone else? Wrote:
Extract taken from page 152 of the South London RUS

Operational analysis
Platforms at New Cross Gate are only 8 car length, so only a limited number of main line services could call, and very few at the height of the peak.
Additional stops would have a significant adverse impact on main line capacity, leading to a reduction in frequency during the peak.

There is a simple solution to this, while work is going on the build a flyover and NXG is being made disabled accessible, make the platforms longer. I am sure the space exists to do this and in fact it is not in NXG or any other station on the line that lengthening platforms would be a problem, it is specifically at London Bridge (details are found on page 130-131, assessment option 4.3). The wisdom of increasing the length of trains through Forest Hill is recognised, but with the loss of platforms at London Bridge due to Thameslink expansion we will be left with trains only using platforms 14-16 which are too short. Surely it would not be difficult to lengthen these platforms at London Bridge (there is clearly room to do this).

Additional stops would make trains go slower, but that would not effect the ability to run at the same frequency (14tph during the peak), afterall they are planning to run 14tph on the slow lines with even more additional stops.

Quote:
Passenger impact
This option would provide new improved journey opportunities from main line destinations to East London. However, it would increase journey times on these services to London Bridge.

Only by a couple of minutes and it would not need to be for all 14 tph, just some would provide a useful interchange for people travelling from East London to Gatwick or South East London to Kings Cross/St Pancras and other destinations (especially with the introduction of more Thameslink trains).

Quote:
In addition, ELL services at New Cross Gate are predicted to be very full at this point. This option would increase overcrowding on these services.
In the reverse direction in the evening peak, main line services will already be too full to accommodate passengers changing from the ELL.

Their claim is that there will be too many people on ELL in the morning to allow people from the fast trains to get on, and that there will be too many people on the fast trains in the evening to allow people to change from the ELL. This makes little sense as there would still be the same number of people wishing to travel to/from beyond Croyon whichever route they take.

It is also worth noting that the prediction is that ELL will be overcrowded, presumably even with the additional trains recommended by option 2.3 (page 112). Option 2.3 actually states that

RUS page 112 Wrote:
Crowding would be better addressed ? given the choice ? by the operation of additional 8-car trains to London Bridge, an established London terminal, in preference to the operation of additional 4-car trains to the ELL.

So what does this tell us about overcrowding on the line from Forest Hill to Sydenham? That it will continue to be overcrowded (possibly worse than today) by the reduction in services from Forest Hill.

It is still good that we are getting the East London Line coming to Forest Hill, but the decisions Network Rail are taking on other services in South London show a real lack of imagination or care for passengers from South London.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #63
22-12-2007 01:33 AM

On reflection, realistically there is no chance that they will delay the passengers coming in from the stock broker belt. These long haul passengers will argue that it is ridiculous that their service should suffer due to failings in a local service. And I agree.

Zone 3 rail links should be underground. The wrong sort of clay arguments no longer wash. In any case tunnel under the existing lines to be safe - link up to London Bridge, then onto Charring Cross, Green Park and beyond using the old Jubilee tunnels.
Connect up with East Croydon in the South and this would surely provide an extremely useful and popular service, that would take the pressure off the BR lines/roads into London. Sorted.

And in the meanwhile, sorry, the BR service into London must remain at least at the same level.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #64
22-12-2007 11:54 AM

I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect the long haul passengers to have a 1-2 minute delay to allow their fellow passengers to change trains to the East London Line. There is a particular shame in the new Thameslink trains rushing straight from London Bridge to Croydon without stopping once in zones 2-4, unlike the Herne Hill/Streatham branch or the Cricklewood / Hendon branch. Once again South East Londoner lose out in travel options.

You are right that a good solution is increased underground connections (which is what ELL extension is about). The obvious route is connecting Elephant & Castle to Lewisham joining the Bakerloo line (which is one of the few lines with spare capacity due to it stopping at E&C) with the DLR. Apparently most of the underground tunnels and viaducts are in place to allow this route to go via Peckham. Forest Hill residents could benefit if a high-level station was opened at Brockley, allowing for interchange from the Forest Hill line.

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Honor Oak Mum


Posts: 7
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #65
23-12-2007 11:57 AM

I travel from HOP into London Bridge between 8am and 9am weekdays. The trains are consistently late and/or cancelled leading to loads of people trying to get onto trains that are already crammed. Meanwhile you stand on the platform and watch trains sail by on the middle track from further south. They definately need more trains and not less - and certainly not to Hoxton. Over the past few weeks its got worse... Then you read the Rail figures saying they have improved. Maybe they are running the service down.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,358
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #66
24-12-2007 05:59 PM

This is an extract from a specch made by Jim Dowd, MP:

"The tube system in south London, and certainly in south-east London, has been a joke for many years?largely because it does not exist. In the latter days of the 19th century, the system was run by a cartel. The Southern Electric Company and the Metropolitan Railway, as they then were, decided that they would not encroach on each other's territory, which is one reason why the tube system never came very far south of the Thames. Elaborate hoaxes were devised. Reference was made to saturated sand that made tunnelling impossible, and God knows what else, but it was the commercial interests of the railway companies that largely dictated the layout of the London underground as it exists today. Fortunately, in more enlightened times we have adopted a more progressive view of improving transport in and around the capital.

When I was growing up in the '50s and '60s, there was a scheme to extend the Bakerloo line from the Elephant and Castle through Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham and Forest Hill and on to Catford and Bromley, but it was never more than a pipe-dream. The costs were always prohibitive, even then, and although the scheme existed on paper, it never existed in fact."

An undergound extension from the Elephant and Castle to Forest Hill and Catford would take the pressure off the overground railways.

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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #67
24-12-2007 07:51 PM

Sherwood Wrote:
When I was growing up in the '50s and '60s, there was a scheme to extend the Bakerloo line from the Elephant and Castle through Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham and Forest Hill and on to Catford and Bromley, but it was never more than a pipe-dream. The costs were always prohibitive, even then, and although the scheme existed on paper, it never existed in fact."


When I lived in Camberwell in the late 80's, this rumour was still alive and well and I laboured under the vain hope that there would be sudden rocket in property prices when the formal plans were announced. However, I was given to understand that they couldn't dig through Camberwell Green as it was a plague pit and even after 400 years was liable to spread death and destruction throughout south London. Go ahead, I said - anything for a tube station....

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,358
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #68
24-12-2007 10:10 PM

The tube line actually extends to Camberwell Green, but this part is used to park the trains!

This is yet another feeble excuse for not building a tube line in soth-east London.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,358
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #69
24-12-2007 10:15 PM

There is a theory that the Bakerloo line could be linked using existing overground railway lines with the railway line to Hayes. I am not sure what the route would be.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #70
24-12-2007 11:50 PM

Below is a picture of the possible route joining the Bakerloo line to existing lines that go through Peckham, Lewisham, Catford and on to Hayes. I have included the ELL Extensions phases 1 and 2 to show what the basis of a South East London tube system would look like. (Unfortunately I have a problem with the size of images.)
   

The only infrastructure work that would be required would be extending an unused underground tunnel from E&C to Camberwell and bringing it to the surface. Reopening Camberwell station would also make sense.

Camberwell train station (closed in 1916)


This Bakerloo line extension would interchange with DLR, Croydon tramlink, and ELLX phase 2 with a link to Clapham. An interchange with ELLX phase 1 (our line) could be provided at Brockley station.

My prediction is that we should not need to wait more than 50 years for this extension to be built.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,358
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #71
27-12-2007 03:13 PM

Actually, they could extend the ELL from New Cross through Catford Bridge to Hayes as they are doing from New Cross Gate through Forest Hill.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #72
02-02-2008 04:26 PM

Good news for rail passengers from Forest Hill and Sydenham

Over the last year the Forest Hill Society and the Sydenham Society have jointly campaigned to keep our current levels of services to and from London mainline stations after the introduction of the East London Line in 2010. Jim Dowd, our local MP, together with Len Duvall, our GLA member, has also lobbied hard in support of our aims.

Last Autumn Network Rail published their draft Route Utilisation Strategy setting out proposed levels of rail services from 2010. It clearly suggested a significant reduction in services to London Bridge. There were doubts too about the continuation of the current off-peak services to Victoria.

However, new information recently received from Network Rail, via London TravelWatch, suggests that, as a result of our continued campaign, most of our concerns about their proposals have now been addressed.

Rather than a reduction in peak services to London Bridge the plan now is that the total number of trains between 7am and 10am will remain at the current level of 18 trains, with only a slight adjustment to the present hourly spread of trains. All trains are planned to be 8 carriages long, whereas some are currently only 6 carriages long. This represents an overall increase in carriages serving Forest Hill and Sydenham during peak time.

Indications are that the present direct off-peak services to Victoria may continue from Forest Hill and Sydenham, while at peak times the extension of the East London Line to Crystal Palace will reduce journey times to Victoria and Clapham Junction from our line.

The addition of 8 trains of 4 carriages on the East London Railway from 2010 is welcomed by both Societies as providing fast and regular connections to the Jubilee Line, Crystal Palace, Docklands and the East of the City of London as well as other destinations.

The services outlined above are dependent on the agreement of the Department for Transport and on their discussions with the train operators and Transport for London when the Franchises are renegotiated in 2009. We will therefore continue to closely monitor the situation over the next couple of years to make sure that these revised proposals become a reality.

Highlights:

* From 2010 Forest Hill, Sydenham, Honor Oak Park, Brockley, Penge West and Anerley will be connected to the Overground tube system
* New peak services to Crystal Palace allowing for interchange to Victoria
* Possible continuation of off-peak services to Victoria
* Journey times under 18 minutes to Canary Wharf
* Commuters working in the east of the City, travelling on a direct connection to Shoreditch, will benefit from cheaper tickets by avoiding zone 1
* Oyster readers on all stations on the line
* Southbound platform at Forest Hill to be made accessible to disabled passengers with money from DfT


Negative impacts:

* All services between London Bridge and Forest Hill/Sydenham will be stopping services, removing existing fast services
* No direct services to and from Charing Cross, from 2009


We will continue to campaign about the negative impacts and we will work with the rail industry to ensure further improvements in the future. In particular we will press for 10 or 12 carriage trains into London Bridge. This would require the extension of all station platforms along the route, but will become necessary as more passengers continue to use the rail services from our area.

Overall this is good news for people in Forest Hill, Honor Oak, and Sydenham who finally get to join the tube system.

For further information:

Michael Abrahams ? Michael@foresthillsociety.com - Chair, Forest Hill Society

Pat Trembath - pattrembath@googlemail.com - Chair, Sydenham Society

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Ghis


Posts: 321
Joined: Jan 2007
Post: #73
02-02-2008 06:01 PM

Good news!

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #74
02-02-2008 10:53 PM

One other piece of good news today is that Honor Oak Park and Brockley are in the next round of Access for All funding from the DfT. Nothing is likely to change until 2012-2015 but this is earlier than thousands of other stations in the country. For some details see http://www.dft.gov.uk/transportforyou/ac...llstations

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #75
03-02-2008 11:40 AM

Michael,
re: Good news for rail passengers from Forest Hill and Sydenham

Can you give us a link please. I've found the site http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk
but I cannot find the document you refer to. It is a large site.

Thanks.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #76
03-02-2008 12:23 PM

Perryman Wrote:
Michael,
re: Good news for rail passengers from Forest Hill and Sydenham

Can you give us a link please. I've found the site http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk
but I cannot find the document you refer to. It is a large site.

Thanks.


This is not information we have found on websites but information we have recieved in face to face and email conversations. A little of this detail has been made public at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20do...20faqs.pdf
see question 4.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #77
04-02-2008 01:53 AM

Thanks michael.
It seems to me that network rail are beginning to recognise that there is a requirement to provide a full morning rush hour service to London Bridge (after the overground is up and running). Well done!
They may even realise in time that there is an equal requirement to get people home again in the evening from LB.

It seems progress is being made so congratulations. But please do not call this orbital overground 'the tube' even in fun! The tube is something different, and hopefully one day the jubilee bakerloo or northern line will at long last be extended into our neck of the woods.

For the record, this is answer 4 from from the network rail document faq:

Quote:
4. Why are you proposing to withdraw morning rush-hour trains (0700-1000) on the Sydenham Line to London Bridge? And what about trains to Victoria?

The combined effects of a) accommodating at least 8 new East London Line trains each hour on this route, and b) the reduction from 9 to 6 in the number of terminating platforms at London Bridge from around 2011/12 (to enable Thameslink construction) mean that there is unlikely to be any spare capacity at London Bridge to accommodate the same number of terminating services as there are today.

The timetable currently being developed for 2010 calls for 6 trains per hour (tph) in the morning peak to London Bridge from all stations from Sydenham northwards, in addition to the East London Line (ELL) trains. Based on arrivals into London Bridge between 0800-0859 these are the changes relative to today:
?
New Cross Gate would maintain today?s 6tph in the high peak to London Bridge
?
Brockley and Honor Oak Park would each see an increase from today?s 4tph to 6tph in the high peak to London Bridge
?
Forest Hill and Sydenham would each see a reduction from 7tph to 6tph in the high peak to London Bridge, but see below.
?
Penge West and Anerley would each have 4tph to London Bridge, approximately double the service today.
?
Norwood Junction would have 4tph running fast to London Bridge, as at present, together with stopping services.

The slight reduction into London Bridge for Sydenham and Forest Hill is seen as unavoidable and is based on the maximum number of trains that can be fitted onto the network. Whilst this is a small overall reduction at these two stations it would be offset by:
?
Originating these services from much nearer to Sydenham. At present they start from places as far away as Caterham. By starting them much nearer, we expect there to be more space available on them
?
Running them all at maximum 8-car length as far as possible; in the longer-term future, the likely recommendation is to lengthen these trains further to 10 cars from around 2015 when the necessary longer platforms at London Bridge will be available
?
Diversion of an increasing level of the demand onto the East London Line services
In any further development of this proposal, we will examine whether it is possible to bring forward the lengthening of at least some of the trains to 10 cars pending the full implementation proposed for 2015.

At present there is no morning peak service from the Sydenham Line to Victoria. Such a service could only be operated by a reduction in the Norwood Junction to Victoria frequency. However, ELL will provide this journey opportunity in the morning peak, by interchanging at Crystal Palace. With respect to today?s through London Bridge ? Crystal Palace ? Victoria 2tph service (which operates at times other than the morning peak), the RUS has not made any specific recommendations because it mainly examines only morning peak services.

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michael


Posts: 3,221
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #78
04-02-2008 08:28 AM

Perryman Wrote:
... But please do not call this orbital overground 'the tube' even in fun! The tube is something different, and hopefully one day the jubilee bakerloo or northern line will at long last be extended into our neck of the woods.


I agree that the Bakerloo line would make a welcome addition to the range of services available, although running it to Forest Hill might not be the best option. However, the East London Railway is officially designated as part of the tube system and the central section under the Thames is one of the older parts of the tube system. Forest Hill and Honor Oak Park are already appearing on official 'tube' maps see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/1106.aspx

No fun intended!

To call it orbital would also be a mistake as the trains will not go beyond Crystal Palace or Highbury & Islington. Orbital suggests a continuous service from one point back to the same point (as with the M25, South/North Circular, Circle Line, or the Moon). Perhaps in the future it will be possible to get a train from New Cross Gate all the way round to New Cross Gate in the same way as the circle line, but not in 2010.

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steveb


Posts: 113
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #79
05-02-2008 03:53 PM

michael Wrote:
Negative impacts:

* All services between London Bridge and Forest Hill/Sydenham will be stopping services, removing existing fast services


Worth stating that this is only a negative for Forest Hill users - its a positive for Honor Oak Park which will get more trains.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #80
05-02-2008 04:01 PM

I think 'orbital' is more than fair to describe the longer term aim of the london overground. However, I think it is pretty pointless joining up local services to do this. A London orbital should be a fast service connecting ~5-10 major transport hubs in outer london - East Croydon, Lewisham(?), Heathrow, Watford, Romford(?), stratford(?) etc.
I should be able to get to the other sides of london in 30mins. After all, I can get to Brighton in under 1 hour.

Overground Orbit:
Crystal Palace to Clapham will be the only section of the orbit that is not the Overground, and that may change if we lose the London Bridge/Victoria service.

The west london line (Clapham Jumction to Willsden) is already part of the overground.
The north london section of the Overground connects Willsden to Dalston.
The newish east london section of the overground will (eventually) connect Dalston to Crystal Palace to complete the orbit. (via a Dalston Junction?).

The underground map always had spurious rail links on it.
The tube is a very frequent (2/3 mins) service that goes through central London. Most people in se23 need to journey into London too. A tube service would be ideal. This orbital service aint it.
This is why we must not lose our existing connectivity to London Bridge to accommodate this new service - and that is something I think we can all agree on.

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