Some have suggested a full pedestrian phase at the junction,
others have suggested better placement of filter lights and pedestrian signals, and a wider pedestrian island.
1. I fully support the single phase crossing outside WHS - I thought that option had the consensus here?
2. A full pedestrian phase for the whole junction like at Oxford circus is unrealistic as they are never going to implement that on the South circ. In any case ours is a T junction. Please let's not confuse matters.
3. The filter lights are thankfully not always noticed, so every now and then gift pedestrians an extended period to cross. This is not an urgent problem.
4. The pedestrian signals are clear enough. Anyone who has ever used the junction will know what causes the confusion. The lights are badly phased, and keep west bound pedestrians held on the island for an additional peculiar 1.5 phases: for both the east bound traffic phase to complete and then the east bound Dartmouth Rd traffic phase to complete.
Also like all the other badly configured crossings around here, after a while people lose patience with the things and make their own way.
5. A larger island is a nice idea but articulated lorries have trouble getting round that corner already. Where is the space coming from?
To be fair to tfl, these pedestrian barriers are not crash barriers, and if a truck had a puncture at this turning, say, then all on the island would be wiped out regardless. Any additional protection from stray vehicles is largely an illusion.
This whole declarable of TfL managed road junctions on the South Circ reminds me of the nearby junction of Lordship Lane and Dulwich Common where it's Russian Roulette if you can cross the road thanks to the almost permanent green light allowing traffic from FH to turn left into the Common.
It's risky crossing between the island on the common and Cox's Walk and can be safer walking down to the traffic island opposite Fireman's Alley/Dulwich Park than crossing at the large junction.
There's also the odd traffic island on LL opposite the Deeper Life Bible Church which really isn't useful at all thanks to traffic always given priority.
Pedestrians do need better provision and a higher priority than currently at most junctions/roads in London - with the caveat that if they push to cross and then cross on red man or wander off, that the lights switch back to road priority.
Stopping all the traffic for 20 seconds to allow pedestrians to cross in all directions wouldn't bring traffic to a halt entirely. They manage to do it at Stockwell gyratory which is a main traffic thoroughfare too.
Traffic in London doesn't move all that fast anyhow - it is a series of short spurts to stop at lights in any case. Making a few of those lights take a little longer - or more of the roads to have a 20mph limit to make them safer for pedestrians (and cyclists) wouldn't really massively impact motorised journey times since the average speed is only something like 12mph anyhow!
Here's what Google Streetview is currently showing for the pedestrian crossing outside WHSmith:
A pedestrian island barely fit for purpose, especially when you consider it is the main link between the station and one of London's finest museums.
I have sent a copy of the picture to TfL for comment.
It is far from ideal, I agree. If you're coming down the hill to the station and just miss a green phase, it will take you 3 minutes to get across the street to the WH Smith. Not that I've timed it of course. OK, I have. This includes getting to the middle of the island and then waiting again as you'll just miss the green on the 2nd half of the crossing. Don't ever be late for a train, or this will mess with your schedule.
The downside is that if you fix the crossing timings, then you mess up the traffic and who wants more jams and pollution than we already have.
My vote would be for putting in a subway style crossing underground. Either that or put the whole Circular underground, see you on Dulwich Common.
I'd be interested to know from any local resident with civil engineering qualifications what would be involved in putting in a subway, and subways are never nice places.
What happened to the all-ways stop phase for pedestrians to cross?
Something to stop the drivers coming down the London Road going through red lights would help as well.
Pressure to get through the lights could possibly be eased by moving the bus stop nearest the lights so that the majority of vehicles turning left on the filter can get through when there are a few vehicles waiting to turn right.
If Tfl are refusing to provide a 1 stage crossing outside this busy station, then they need to provide a larger island projecting into the junction and partly wrapping around the corner.
This would create a safer large holding 'pen' for crossers who would be more visible to traffic and have better lines of sight as well.
The traffic exiting Dartmouth Rd might all have to be directed left into London Rd to accommodate this, but left-only junctions onto main roads are not so uncommon.
Not sure what we do with the 122 or the emergency services. But Tfl have smart people - I'm sure they'd be able to work the small details out.
Alternatively they could spend 10 minutes re-phasing the lights.
Or of course do nothing at all.
The thing is, I see a lot of people going through the red when there is little traffic. Part of the minority of "IDGAF" brigade. The issue is that with a lot of pedestrian iSheep there is going to be a serious accident there soon. There already have been a few unfortunately.
With the proposed extended wrap around pedestrian island in the way,
the buses/fire engines from Dartmouth Rd might have trouble negotiating the corner, if they wanted to go (what is now) straight on.
I tried with a scaled bus shaped rectangle cut from a quorn burger packet on google maps, so I think I know what I'm talking about.
It would not be a comfortable manoeuvre, especially in front of the 'launderette' corner with a crowd of people waiting to cross. And those on the island would not be expecting a bus coming up behind them.
Michael - you do not sound too convinced about my enlarged island!
I agree that a 1-phase crossing sounds great, but unfortunately tfl prioritise their red route traffic over all other considerations.
If a 1-phase crossing stops the traffic for twice as long, then they'll keep the people waiting to cross... twice as long.
And then they'll wonder why crowds of pedestrians are forcing their own way across, some stranded half way...with no island.
To keep pedestrians' wait reasonable for a 1 phase cross, and to keep the flow of the south circ similar to now then I think the Dartmouth Rd exit (straight ahead) phase is again going to have to be sacrificed.
There are no easy answers with tfl in charge - I'll keep you informed if I get a vegan cardboard bus to negotiate around my island.
Perhaps we need to tell TFL that some of their prioritisation needs to change. We are all pedestrians at some point... we are not all drivers. Why should drivers get the highest priority within our neighbourhoods (red routes or otherwise)? Cars and lorries cause massive amounts of pollution which has a negative impact on our health - I read an article recently which said Londoners have several years reduced lifespan because of the damage particulates do to our lungs. And that's before we get to the real scaremongering around bad drivers and the cost of accidents to the NHS.
Walking (if not along polluted thoroughfares) improves our cardiovascular health, reduces the risks of obesity and diabetes and saves the NHS money.
So why exactly is the motorist king in the city? Rural areas where cars can be essential is one thing but in London, there should be more emphasis on people and less on vehicles.
IMO, it's also helpful to try and keep traffic flowing in a very busy city, rather than frustrating it with poorly timed traffic lights etc... as this reduces the amount of time engines are on overall and reduces the time cars are sat in one place burning fuel.
That said, as a pedestrian, I'd rather cross the road, than cross halfway across the road and wait again.
Why do people assume that stopping the traffic all at once means that traffic is slowed down? Traffic in all directions has to stop at SOME point in the sequence. Just because there is always some traffic moving in some direction under the current system, we have the illusion that the inconvenience to pedestrians is made worth it because the traffic keeps moving. All-stop green crossings are quicker than the current system of stopping and starting pedestrians. You can have everyone over in 20 - 30 seconds max. So the overall amount of time traffic was held on a red would very likely be less.
South circ traffic turning left from London Rd for instants, is currently stopped for 2 phases - once to let the Dartmouth Rd traffic across and once to let pedestrians cross from the island outside WHSmiths.
If people are crossing the whole width of the road instead, or somehow X-crossing this T-junction, then the traffic will wait for longer.
The only way you could possibly slow the traffic by less is by making the pedestrian waiting time longer.
Of course in the future we may indeed get quite a few all-stop sequences every day: the Morrison's alcopop monster delivery trucks will need a few minutes to reverse in and out of Havelock walk, and all the traffic will be stopped then. Huzzah!
Michael - you do not sound too convinced about my enlarged island!
An enlarged island is definitely needed. I'm not sure about restricting turning at the junction as I'm sure it would annoy somebody and lead to unintended consequences.
As an example, if you prevent straight on traffic out of Dartmouth Road, then Manor Mount is likely to experience more traffic from cars using this to get back onto the east bound south circular.
What would be interesting to find out is where cars using Dartmouth Road are traveling to and from. Except for local people I can't imagine it is a particularly useful route for most people. It is not the obvious route to the South circular from Sydenham or Crystal Palace unless you are heading for the centre of Forest Hill.
Perhaps traffic on Dartmouth Road could be reduced by diverting the A2216. This A road starts in Sydenham (Cobbs Corner) and goes down Dartmouth Road, later is emerges on Lordship Lane and continues to Denmark Hill. In other words London Road is both the A205 and the A2216. A faster route is obviously to use Sydenham Hill and cut out the centre of Forest Hill. Recognising this as an appropriate route for traffic on the A2216 would sort out any problems with Sat Nav systems which prefer A roads to un-numbered roads.
It would also help traffic from Catford realise that the best route to Crystal Palace is up Sydenham High Street (with its excellent pedestrian crossings) or through Penge, rather than using Dartmouth Road and Jews Walk.
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