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Farmers' market in the Horniman Gardens
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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #41
29-10-2013 09:10 PM

Thanks cellar Door I completely cut off and chilled yesterday with my daughter. Must let you all know my lovely neighbours Lee and Emma are still my lovely neighbours, and they want everything to work out too. They are a lovely local family.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #42
29-10-2013 09:26 PM

This post has me torn in half completely, as after relaxing I have came to realise pockets won't work, Emma agreed with me as it would be to much work to put together, and it would be. Any other thought peeps?

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #43
29-10-2013 10:06 PM

Remember shops have rent and business rates to pay every month, stalls don't. Some shops can't survive without footfall (not me personally, but I can think of 3 others) Plz take a trip up Dartmouth Road this week.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #44
29-10-2013 10:19 PM

Sorry for ranting and raving but if a fellow Dartmouth Road Trader is struggling I will do all I can to help out.

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hillwalker


Posts: 20
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #45
30-10-2013 08:59 AM

How about moving to the space in front of the pools? It's quite a large area and will increase the d road footfall.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #46
30-10-2013 09:17 AM

Thanks Hillwalker I will suggest this, but from reading previous posts it seems to me that most like the location being The Horniman. Maybe the solution would be to rotate the market between The Horniman and The Pools. What do others think?

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Belle


Posts: 88
Joined: Dec 2009
Post: #47
30-10-2013 10:22 AM

I trust the Forest Hill Society has flagged this up with the Horniman otherwise it sounds as though Dartmouth Rd is going to be come decimated which will be truly awful after so much improvement and hard work.

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Red67


Posts: 141
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #48
30-10-2013 04:36 PM

Is there any word yet on whether the market will become a permanent fixture after Christmas?
Not knowing what the arrangement is between the organisers and the Horniman, I think it is more a case of allowing the market and the traders that have taken the plunge and opened shops here to work together if they can, and want to, as other people have suggested:

"To my mind the thing to do would be to set up a 'Totally Locally' stand at the market"

That seems like a good idea to me. That might allow local traders who may not have stalls to advertise and promote themselves?
I'm very pleased that the market is a success, i welcome it, and there is obviously a demand for it, but i think recognising that some of that success has been made possible by the fact that people may be shopping more locally for speciality foods etc now because more small shops have been brave enough to open here (and the FHSoc have done sterling work to encourage that, of course) would be good.
Personally, i'm going to continue to spread my shopping between the market (while it's here?) for a few things and the shops i like to use and want to support locally.

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #49
30-10-2013 04:57 PM

Quote:
"To my mind the thing to do would be to set up a 'Totally Locally' stand at the market"

Completely agree. I also believe that improving signage between the town centre and the Horniman (and vice versa would help).

The FH Society expressed our concerns (about taking away footfall from the town centre) to the Horniman months ago, well before the market was set up. We, and others continue to have discussions with all involved, but our position is slightly compromised by the fact that we run our own market once a month - which I hope everybody will support this Sunday.

Personally I really like the Horniman Market, it is a terrific venue and has some great traders. I have some ideas about how the balance can be adjusted but I'm afraid I don't want to post all my thoughts on the subject on the forum at the moment. My wife and I have been discussing little else for months now so we do have a few ideas about how things can develop.

I'm very happy to speak to anybody about some of our ideas regarding how things can be improved for everybody. Feel free to discuss it at the FH Soc Food Fair this Sunday where I will be all day.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #50
30-10-2013 08:44 PM

Red67 Just to let you know everyone involved that wants this to work out and suit everyone are doing all they can and meetings have and are going on. See Michael's post. I think I need to stop posting and take a step back on this post as I am too emotionally involved with all parties. I'm sure all will work out well in the end for everyone involved, customers coming first!

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 459
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #51
30-10-2013 10:40 PM

I think it would be a great idea to actually split the farmers market into two or Three locations, therefore turning Forest Hill into something of a foodie destination which would hopefully attract custom from H.O.P Brockley. and Sydenham.
The ideal would be to have the existing market perhaps focussing on Fruit and Veg at the Horniman Location, with some 'snack' stalls.
Have Fish and Meat and more snack stalls in the station car-park, Then finally having Bread Cakes, and 'dry produce' in the area near the pools.
With the likes of Aga's and Sugar mountain setting up deli and sweet stalls outside their shops.
If You look at Borough market that is actually spread across more than one location, and actually splits into three distinct 'zones' and now there is also Maltby Street which is down the road but attracts customers from the old borough market.
This is just a thought, as we need to drive business down the hill and into the town centre.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #52
30-10-2013 11:20 PM

Cheers for your post Nottinghillbilly. It makes a lot of sense.

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isaglanzer


Posts: 55
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #53
30-10-2013 11:25 PM

I'm still a bit confused about the perceived impact on Dartmouth Rd when hardly anything that is sold at the Farmers' Market is available in Dartmouth Rd, and vice versa? The brilliant Butchery is both at the market and in central Forest Hill and I can see some overlap with Aga's, but not really much otherwise?

If anything, the market stops me going to Lordship Lane, which has a fairly comprehensive range of nice food and is thus a more realistic competitor for the market than central Forest Hill. It keeps me in SE23, making me more likely also to go to the central Forest Hill shops. Those of us who live on the hill behind the Horniman or to the west of it are perhaps especially likely to have previously shopped in SE22, which is quite near, than to have gone to central Forest Hill, which is not much nearer and had fewer good shops.

The market does seem an excellent addition to local life, enriching it socially as well as commercially as it's a great place to hang around, especially with kids, and bump into neighbours. I do hope the wonderful Forest Hill Society, who do so much for our local environment, have something up their sleeves that involves supporting its continuation!

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #54
30-10-2013 11:33 PM

The difference in walking distance between the Borough Market zones is on a different scale entirely to what nottinghillbilly suggests.

I do agree that a 'Totally Local' stall (free from Horniman market) would be a great idea to promote all the shops down the hill.

But, at the risk of being unpopular, I don't think splitting the market is a good idea. At the moment, it's still building as a 'destination'. They are 'training' their customers into a weekly habit of visiting and getting used to getting essentials (fruit/veg, breads, eggs, cheese, meats) and some treats (cakes, muffins, snacks) from them rather than supermarkets or hiking into Borough. People like simplicity - it's on in one place every week and there's no thought process.

As soon as you start making people figure out either than it's only on every other week or which stalls are where, it gets more complicated and people don't bother.

I'm also fairly sure that the Horniman want to drive more family footfall to themselves in the winter months so I'm not sure what's in it for them to dilute the market? If the Dartmouth Road traders had wanted to drive footfall and think a farmers market would have helped, why didn't they start one at the pools months ago?

Is there anything else the Dartmouth Road shops could do in that space to encourage more pedestrian traffic and use as a differentiator? A good arts/craft market? A modern 'flea' market for people to rummage through with vintage jewellery/crockery/accessories?

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 459
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #55
30-10-2013 11:59 PM

I also think Applespider's suggestion about creating a non foodie destination market near the pools on Dartmouth road could be the answer.
Especially if its a decent mix of vintage and craft, though to be honest (and here I will probably be making myself unpopular) too often craft stalls alone are full of twee overpriced useless 'stuff'
what we DONT want to do is set up stall based competition to our excellent craft shops Doopoo, and Stag and Bow.OR our vintage shops Montage and Dapper.
The more I think about it therefore, the more I veer towards the idea of having more clothing based vintage on dartmouth road, and maybe some recycled/restyled clothing and home ware stalls.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #56
31-10-2013 11:57 PM

Said I would try to step away from this post but just can't, as FH means too much to me. Sorry to wear my heart on my sleave but thats just me. Apologies over what do you all think about the market being on Sunday's rather than Saturday's. This would mean that shops on D Rd would still have normal footfall on the busiest day of the week, and then could probably cope with a little less trade on Sunday's, and the market could still be weekly. I'm trying to work out options to suit everyone and think this might be the solution. Feedback would be good thanks.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #57
01-11-2013 12:41 AM

I'd also like to say, what would I do if I visited the market, and please be reminded I want the market to thrive, but also don't want the shops to suffer.

As a parent I would watch my son run around while I shopped as there are no roads nearby. If it was raining visit the museum, if not have fun in the gardens. Chill out have lunch and coffee and not visit Dartmouth Road etc as I have bags of shopping so just want to get home and unload my shopping.

This is what is happening and this is why the shops are suffering. I really hope as many peeps as me want to save FH shops aswell as keep the market, both can work if we all work together.

Any response to the market moving to Sunday's would be greatly appreciated.

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 459
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #58
01-11-2013 07:12 AM

I'm pro it moving to Sunday.
As I suggested in one of my earlier posts...not much else happens on Sunday.

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Hillstop


Posts: 25
Joined: Feb 2013
Post: #59
01-11-2013 07:41 AM

I must admit I do like having it on a Saturday because it means we eat loads of vegetables on Saturday and Sunday.

However, we'd still attend the farmer's market every week if it was on a Sunday. If that meant trade picked up at the Dartmouth Road shops on the Saturday, I think it's a good compromise.

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MightyMouse


Posts: 122
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #60
01-11-2013 08:01 AM

Who "owns" this market? Is it a random group of traders, not affiliated to Forest Hill, who have borrowed/rented the space from the Horniman and who are probably thrilled at their success?

Or is it the Horniman themselves, who are also likely to be chuffed at the extra footfall - more visitors in general, more visitors to the charged-for exhibition, more visitors stuffing the odd extra fiver in the collection box, more visitors in the cafe/shop on damp/cold days?

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I can't help feeling that the only people who want this to change are the Dartmouth Road shopkeepers. Maybe Forest Hill is some utopian socialist paradise where everybody wants to work to the common good, so the organisers/Horniman are willing to give up some of their raging success (the result of, I'm sure, lots of hard work and no small risk) to benefit the random selection of craft shops and cafes on Dartmouth Road.

But somehow, personally, I doubt it. And I wouldn't blame them one little bit. Business, money making, capitalism, whatever you want to call it, rarely has room for playing nicely, and competition is a fact of life.

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