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Farmers' market in the Horniman Gardens
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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #101
09-11-2013 09:31 PM

Hi All
Just want all to know that FH community spirit is so alive and kicking. I've had quite a few locals pop in today after reading these posts to support D Rd, and all didn't realise until they read this or popped up D Rd to have a look at what is happening. Thank you all so much for making the effort to check it out. I haven't read the posts since I last posted as I needed to take a step back for a while and try to calm down and stop being so passionate about FH, tempted to read them now though!

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #102
09-11-2013 09:56 PM

I have now read the posts and yes some don't like me for being honest and some do, but we all have different opinions, thats life and is good I think, as everyone gets to voice there opinion, which means future projects can have more local input. Please let me remind you I want the market to thrive, but not at the expense of the shops closing. Have a good evening all.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #103
10-11-2013 08:10 PM

Thank you yet again readers of this post for popping up to D Rd today. It is very much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to have a look at what is on offer. I enjoyed chatting to you all today.

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #104
12-11-2013 10:39 PM

Dartmouth Road is great for shopping now compared with a couple of years ago. My kids love Sugar Mountain (and its owner). Robs (and its owner), Agas (you get the picture). Sainsbury's have never given my kids a lolly on their birthday and have never let my kids try the cheese. We love Gym cafe and Dartmouth Tandoori too.

So whilst I think the Farmer's Market is a great idea (first time this weekend - ironically we took food from Agas!) I do worry that it kind of splits the footflow in Forest Hill and creates the focal point at the Horniman instead of the town.

We do need to think about making it easier to stop on Dartmouth Road to use the shops or create a focal point around the pool/louise house/library etc to encourage people to dwell there. Not sure I have an answer to that though.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #105
12-11-2013 11:04 PM

I do have something up my sleave for December which I am trying my hardest to do in so little time to suit everyone on this thread. It wll also be able to get footfall back for shops that can't hold out till xmas and will be the most amazing event ever in FH for local kids in a long time if I can make it happen. Fingers crossed I can do it, I've asked for lots of help from other organisations and they think it might be possible. I just love FH.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #106
12-11-2013 11:47 PM

Just to let all know Horniman Farmers Market will be going ahead next year and have said NO to trading on Sunday's instead of Saturday's and NO to trading fortnightly which local traders asked for to save our shops. They have agreed to let local shops have a banner and free stall promoting Totally Locally FH, but my personal view on this is that they are just doing what they need too to save face with the local community. Maybe I'm too passionate about FH as a whole. I'll add that no local coffee shop ie St Davids can't have a stall as they are tied in to there suppliers but not hot food. Again I don't fit the sweet criteria when the chocolate stall sells chocolate which comes from Peruvian Andes, Eastern Congo, Bolivian Amazon etc What is the criteria? I will keep on about this to make eveyone aware that THE SHOPS WILL CLOSE if this carries on. Some parties don't want me to voice this but I think all need to know to make up their own minds.

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #107
13-11-2013 08:49 AM

I think you're totally within your rights to voice your concerns and thank you for doing that. You've made a big difference to Dartmouth Road and your passion is clear. There must be a middle way, where the Forest Hill shops benefit from having a farmer's market at the Horniman. Could it do one day a month outside the pools for instance?

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #108
13-11-2013 09:20 AM

Hi Deano someone did ask if the market could be split between The Horniman and the pools to get footfall flowing around all of FH but again the answer was NO as it would be too much work.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #109
13-11-2013 11:13 AM

Not just too much work, but it wouldn't work (as a two-site farmers market half a mile apart), and would be substantially more expensive to run (due to licensing restrictions). There are often good reasons for the answer 'NO', and it was not simply the hassle of doing this.

A monthly market outside the pool (or close by) selling something other than food might work, but it is not necessarily for Lee and Emma or the Horniman to run such a market. If running a market at the pools is a good and profitable idea then I hope somebody else will take the initiative rather than trying to make it a term of business for the existing successful market.

I think the Horniman are interested in promoting the high street, and traders should, and will, take advantage of this opportunity.

The criteria for confectionery was clearly described at Monday's meeting as chocolate or sweets that are manufactured locally. In the case of the chocolate stall at the market all the chocolate is fair trade and is produced by an artisan chocolateer. I doubt that anybody would prevent a Totally Locally stall giving away sample sweets from a local sweet shop, and it would be a great way for the local traders to attract people to the Totally Locally stall (and obviously particularly great publicity for the sweet shop). Of course I was going to suggest this via email, but I guess this is the forum for all such discussion to take place!

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slondon


Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #110
13-11-2013 12:15 PM

Great news that the Farmers Market is continuing. I am sure everyone on this forum loves Forest Hill and the local area, even if some may feel they have a monopoly on this, and so the more diversity and choices in the area the better. Well done to the Horniman Museum on taking the initiative with giving the go-ahead to the market - definitely shouldn't be a threat to local shops who are responsive to what people want. And having the market at the Horniman Museum, at least from my perspective, has transformed Saturday mornings looking after a toddler who loves to walk around while his parents look at fresh food in lovely surroundings. If a business is so fragile it is worried about a once a week half day market then of course that's a real worry and it's great to support local shops - but like I said in my previous post, no reason why one business has a right to exist over another or a right to moan about people having a wider choice than before about where they go on a saturday morning!

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 376
Joined: May 2005
Post: #111
13-11-2013 12:50 PM

slondon - I'm torn here but I can fully appreciate everything you're saying. I suppose, therefore, that the sensible way forward is for us to ask the 1500-2000 people who visit the market every week the question - what would you like to see in Dartmouth Road, *Davids Road and Perry Vale that would make you want to visit these parts of Forest Hill more often than you do now?

* I don't have any real concerns for Davids Road because there are so few businesses down there and St. Davids Coffee House is a good enough place that a mere handful of the market's customers going down there will mushroom, after word-of-mouth, to hundreds within no time! (Aside from that I don't want too many people going in there cos I'll lose my seat to get the best bacon rolls in the world!)

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Red67


Posts: 141
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #112
13-11-2013 01:01 PM

I'm not sure that this forum is always the most appropriate place to discuss matters that might be more efficiently communicated directly between the parties concerned (traders, stakeholders) so that there is clarity, an attempt at consensus and an effective strategy, which might take a bit of the emotion and stress out of it (P1971 please don't read anything personal into this! You do a great job!). I really do hope the market is a success, but i have yet to be convinced about its sustainability and can already see the slide into fancy dress stalls (?!) and a lot of pre-prepared foods (FHSoc Food Fair already does a good job of that). Where has the fish stall gone? Will there be a guaranteed list of regular fresh produce suppliers at each market? Although it's a cliche, I think what i want to say is ultimately it's a 'use it or lose it' scenario where our local shops are concerned in the face of this, which i think, Michael, you expressed very well in an earlier post. It's a personal choice. But maybe this is all a fuss over nothing, i'm totally wrong, and it's all about the short term and finding an easy place to shop with a toddler on a Saturday, be it Farmers Market or Supermarket. Please, just don't come on here in the future and moan about the (possible) lack of shops and life in the town centre... and shop 'mindfully'.

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slondon


Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #113
13-11-2013 01:21 PM

Hi

Yes, definitely a good idea to find out from a wide range of people, including market attendees what more could be done to entice people to local shops. There are also presumably many people who don't frequent either, but perhaps would - and so more marketing and promotion locally needed.

Local shops definitely need to be made use of or lost and it is great to see high streets attract new small businesses. It just seems mean-spirited to lobby against a popular new market or to moan about it - just because you were there first in establishing a business (which after all is aimed at not only serving a community but generating yourself a profit) doesn't mean you have a devine right to prevent what you choose to perceive as competition

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MightyMouse


Posts: 122
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #114
13-11-2013 01:39 PM

I do know this thread has made me quite keen on attending the market. It didn't occur to me to go at first, as I get my groceries delivered, and some of the posts about how it's a haven for running-about-toddlers didn't exactly endear me to it, but now I know there's fancy chocolates to be had, I shall hie me on up the hill! Wow

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #115
13-11-2013 02:15 PM

I've been reading these posts and two things strike me:

First - imagine if the Farmers' Market had been here first, before the Dartmouth Road traders arrived. Imagine, then, that they went along to Sugar Mountain and Aga's and said: you are too much competition for us. Please could you only open every other Saturday, to benefit us, a competing business.

Doesn't sound like the real world, does it? And it wouldn't be fair.

Second - it remains to be absolutely proved that the market is the reason that business is quiet on Dartmouth Road. As others have said, there is only a small amount of overlap in the what's provided. And regulars at the market keep saying it hasn't changed their other shopping behaviour. Now, it may seem obvious that the two things are connected, but what if it's just co-incidence? What if there is something else that has affected trade on D Road, and by focussing on the market, that reason is being missed?

What drives footfall to Dartmouth Road? How would the market have deflected it? What else has changed? Is it just the season? Are fewer people using the pools at the weekend now the glorious summer has passed? Is the difficulty in parking, exacerbated by the pools, finally drawing people away? Or has the initial honeymoon period passed for the traders who don't sell food stuffs? I can only buy so many bags and fancy frocks. Traders like that need to bring people in from outside the local area to survive as repeat business from locals will be limited. Are they doing that? Are they also selling items that invite repeat trade? I shop in Bunka more regularly than the other clothes shops because I go in for gifts and kitchen ware. More often than I should I also come out with an item of clothing for me.

So, my main point is: are we asked the right questions?

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Fjgb


Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 2012
Post: #116
13-11-2013 02:22 PM

I do wonder whether the same concerns were raised in Brockley when the Brockley market started, and indeed if that market has had any long term impact on the local businesses. Maybe previous experience can help identify how to mitigate some of the concerns.

For what it's worth, I like the market for all the reasons given above, but don't go every week, just when I need something to do with the toddler really - I only ever really buy vegetables. Same as I don't go to Dartmouth Road shops every week , just when I am there for something else (swimming, library). However, I live in HOP and DO use my local shops daily, including a large sausage roll from Hills & Parkes far too often for my waistband.

I do my best to support local shops but obviously it all needs to fit in with my life, my budget and my needs.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #117
13-11-2013 02:49 PM

The Horniman market brings people into part of Forest Hill, the challenge for the traders is to bring the thousands of extra visitors every week down to the high streets in Forest Hill. One of the opportunities for local traders is to have a 'Totally Locally' stall at the Horniman advertising the range of shops and cafes in the town centre. There are many excellent businesses in Forest Hill that the majority of Horniman visitors don't know about, and this is a fantastic opportunity for them.

I'm not aware of any other farmers markets that have been willing to set aside a stall (for free) for local shops to advertise their goods and services.

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kelly


Posts: 20
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #118
13-11-2013 03:54 PM

Rshdunlop you have hit the nail on the head,as a local trader I agree with you totally,what we now need to do is look at the best way to present ourselves as we have so much more to offer the great people of forest hill,it has to be said that not all businesses are suffering on Dartmouth road and it's important not to lose sight of this as it's a great place to shop 7days a week and will continue to be

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slondon


Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #119
13-11-2013 05:19 PM

Well said Rshdunlop and Kelly in particular. I genuinely had never felt moved enough to contribute to SE23.com before, despite finding it a great resource, but I just thought it seemed very misguided to call for a new successful market to close/relocate/change day just to supposedly prop up a business that may be in trouble for what I suspect are completely unconnected reasons.

Good on anyone who starts up a business but let's not forget as much as you may be committed to serving your local community you're also there to earn a living and make money - no business has a divine right to exist, in the face of real or perceived competition. SE23 and environs (unless you are already struggling to afford a house in the area) can only benefit from more to do locally and to becoming a destination for people to come to. Parts of this debate have seemed a little self-indulgent, perhaps due to genuine fear of sustaining a niche shop in an area which is unlikely to have massive footfall in the foreseeable future - lucky I can get rid of any unpleasant taste left as a result in a lovely new Farmers Market which I hope will be a fixture for many months and years to come

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #120
13-11-2013 10:04 PM

I do agree with most of what others say that have posted on this forum previously on other threads, but I can't help but wonder about new poster's reply's to this thread, yes I'm probably too emotional about this subject and FH as a whole, but my shop is not a failing business or struggling as a niche business in FH due to lack of footfall as the footfall has been here for a year and a half to answer some questions, which has now only been affected lately on Saturday's, but as Kelly has said others are still thriving and I can see that too. On a MASSIVE positive note great traders email today. I will say a BIG thank you to The Horniman for letting us locals have a Totally Locally Forest Hill Camper Van courtesy of Steve from CamperVanTastic to promote local shops at the market on Saturday. Thank you.

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