I really love the Hornimans Farmers/Food Market. Well Done Lee and Emma! I have to be honest and admit to not ever shopping along Dartmouth Rd, so only Sainsburys has lost my custom. The other people that I know that now go regularly to the market are the same. I am sorry that the small shops are losing out but maybe coming up with a positive plan rather than all the negativity might do you more good?...Not much more to say really except blooming good job Lee and Emma!

Nottinghillbilly that has certainly brought tears to my eyes, I don't even know who you are, but bag of sweets on me when you pop in next. We are all working together now to give customers what they want and make FH even more amazing than it allready is, and to help the shops that have been suffering, me included. I just love FH, we all pull together when we really need too. Thats why I'll never leave SE23!

FFS your post must have popped up while I was writing mine!

FFS this is your first post on this forum, makes me wonder!

Wow, quite an aggresive first post I think from FFS on first name terms with Emma and Lee from the market. No more posts from me tonight after that.

Yes it really is my first post and maybe I should have used smiley faces because I am not being at all aggressive ... You certainly know how to woo potential customers... Not sure why I shouldn't use Lee and Emma's first names, I do know them.

I'll leave that up to others to decide because it's very far off what I am about. enjoy your evening.

So you are implying that I'm lying and aggressive. I'm not sure i understand what it is you are leaving up to others to decide? I'm getting the feeling you don't really want me to enjoy the rest of my evening though what a welcome to the forum.

I think we all need to calm down a little (especially P1971) but recognise that for some people this is more than just about having a nice market, it is about their business, their living, and that of their neighbours.

I'm fully in favour of a market at the Horniman, I think I have already said it is a lovely venue for a farmers market, and there is some great produce. But let's look at the other side as well, many people said they would like a real greengrocer in Forest Hill - well that simply isn't going to happen with a successful farmers' market every week. Not a problem because we don't have one, but make no mistake - we never will. A greengrocer with the fixed overheads of rent, staff, and rates cannot compete with a guy with a wheelbarrow at the end of the road, or the much more business savvy farmers' market traders of today with low overheads, flexible staff costs, no reason to open on quiet weekdays, and lower stock levels.

So the market for vegetables has changed over the last 30 years, from when there were three greengrocers in Forest Hill, to supermarkets only, and now Londoners have rediscovered the value and enjoyment of buying from markets (something unheard of to the middle classes of the 1980s).

It is a similar situation music; gone are the independent record shops, gone are the big name high street retailers or music, now music is bought on the Internet (or so I'm told, I've never really bought music). But I'm wandering off topic.

A market certainly brings people to an area but the challenge is to use that footfall to support local businesses rather than undermine them. I know that Lee and Emma are very aware of this challenge and have the fine line to balance of running a successful market and supporting local businesses - and I think we can all appreciate that this is not an easy balance to strike.

The question is what can the high street traders do to encourage more footfall on London Road and Dartmouth Road, and what can the Horniman and the market do to support their efforts. It isn't a simple question and their isn't one simple answer but I hope that when we all sit down together, as is planned, that we can find some ways we can improve the situation.

The obvious message to the rest of us is to shop locally or risk losing the shops. That applies to the market and to the high street. If you haven't ever shopped on Dartmouth Road then I would urge you to consider a walk down it during shopping hours or to find somewhere different for weekend lunch. We are very lucky with some of the shops that are present; card shops, gift shops, coffee shops, art galleries, boutiques, a florist, a butcher, a swimming pool and many more.

Forest Hill has done a lot to attract new businesses to the high street in the last year. Many of the shops are still new and don't have national chains supporting them. They will close if people don't visit them.

In my experience it is never to early to do a spot of Seasonal/Christmas shopping and the best place to start is your local high street (rather than leaving it until the last minute and ending up relying on Amazon or a horribly crowded shopping centre). Enjoy shopping locally at the Horniman and on the high street!

excellent post Michael!

Let's be honest. The market at the horniman is the best thing in Forest Hill. It's great and also in a beautiful place. Wanting it to go away is understandable in the short term if you're a local shopkeeper, but look beyond that and the fact is its appearance is a sign of commercial life. It says that there are people around who will shop in Forest Hill if the right stuff is on offer. As a shopkeeper I'd be more worried if it was a total flop. In any case it's only temporary. Maybe less aggression, more hmmm, that's working well, what if I in the future.... Just a thought. Please don't have a go at me too.

If you live in Forest Hill and have not ever shopped on Dartmouth Road then I suggest you get down there pronto! It has really improved over the last year (down to hard working dedicated residents who have succeeded into making the area a better place to live). You can seriously spend a good couple of hours in FH on a weekend and I really try to buy at least my birthday gifts in Forest Hill. I find it hard to comprehend why people who have invested in living in the area would not want to spend some of their money in the area when it can only have a positive effect. My sister who now lives out of London was really impressed how FH has come on since she last visited and it would be a massive understatement to say how disappointing it would be to see some of the shops close down.

I wholeheartedly want both Dartmouth Road and the Horniman market to thrive and managed wisely by people who have the appropriate expertise I really hope this can be achieved. I've been trying to think of other areas in London that have a combination of a thriving high street and a local market - there must be some we can take lessons from?!

I agree Michael's post is spot on, and I do have to calm down, but don't know how too. I see day in day out what is happening on D Rd since the market started and it breaks my heart because I want the market to thrive too. I'm also scared that at some point down the line I will have to close and that means I will be upseting so many kids and I just can't do that. Off to work have a good day all, and sorry if I have upset anyone with my posts.

Yes, well said Michael. I agree. I just don't think it's a simple problem to which the answer is 'Well, that's capitalism. Compete or die' especially when public money has been spent to encourage and support new independent shops opening (SEE3 project, for example)....my feeling is that it's a bit more complicated than that. Very good to hear that there will be discussion between relevant parties on how to move forward. Hopefully it will mean better opportunities for shopping and for the shopkeepers whose businesses make the area what it is.

Belle, I do spend some of my money in Forest Hill. I will have a wander along D Road this week and have a shuftie..
For me it's about supporting the bits I can afford to, that meet my need. We don't have enough money to do it any other way. It's been a very interesting introduction to the SE 23 forum *non aggressive smiley face *

Hi all

I've dipped in and out of the Forum since moving to the borders of SE23 some time ago and find it a great resource with great contributors but have never posted - until now.

Just to say, and I have absolutely no link to anyone connected to the market whatsoever but feel moved to comment in the face of some comments I think are unreasonable to say the least, I think the Horniman Farmers Market is a brilliant addition and should be welcomed by all who care about the area improving and having more to offer. It has such a friendly community atmosphere and is perfect if like me (and many others) you like to wonder about outside buying fresh food, not least if you also have a small child (2 years old in January) to amuse on a Saturday morning! I think the Horniman Museum should also be heavily praised for this, not least as a way of attracting even more people to the museum.

Far from taking me and others from local shops I suspect if anything it actually attracts us into the area at a time when we may not otherwise be there - and indeed attracts others as I have already taken family and friends. I now often come into Forest Hill to go to the market and nearby shops rather than for example going to the park, staying at home or going to Brockley market on a saturday morning or Blackheath market on a sunday morning.

I'm all for local shops prospering and supporting them, but that's absolutely no reason not to support other new initiatives, especially ones that are a great addition. No business has the right to survive over another and I fail to see how scrapping, moving or changing the day of a new, thriving and popular market will do anything to prop up local businesses that may be struggling anyway to survive six or seven days a week.

It's understandable to be upset if you are worried about your livelihood but scapegoating a great new local market is unlikely to save it and nor is getting overly emotional or kidding youself people aren't buying your sweets because they are buying lovely sausage rolls, pies, meat (including from the Butchery) fresh veg, cake or just having a wonder around a new market.

The past few weekends I have pram-pushed from Honor Oak, occasionally munching a croissant from Hills & Parkes, up to the Horniman, where I've done all my fruit and veg shopping for the week (much more preferable to Sainsbury fruit & veg) and bought a chicken for Sunday roast (note to the Butchery - please start selling chickens on your stall - I'd love to buy them if competitively priced with the existing stall!). Then to FH Sainsbury for fish (market fish still too expensive for me unfortunately) and essentials. I've then done my usual browse through the great charity shops, occasionally had a coffee in The Teapot and headed back to Honor Oak, where I've then popped into The Honor Oak Supermarket for my weekly stock of wine (much cheaper than HOP Sainsbury).
A couple of months ago I used to do a weekly shop at Sydenham Sainsbury on a Saturday morning, so purely from my experience Forest Hill is benefiting from the recent changes and I'm enjoying the diversity!
I realise I haven't mentioned Dartmouth Road in all this, but I do buy gifts in Bunka, cards and small gifts in their card shop and use the pools and library. I haven't tried the Montage but I intend to; I'm a bit strict on the sweets front, but if it's a lucky day for my daughter then it's always Sugar Mountain. I haven't been in Aga's Deli so I couldn't say if they can compete on price with equivalent farmers market fare, but then I didn't use it before the market either - to be honest it just *looks* like it might be expensive, and cost is paramount to me. Maybe they should have flyers at their farmers market stall with a bit of info about what they sell and some prices/deals?
In summary - I'm using Forest Hill more now than ever, and I'm sure others from further afield will also start making a difference very soon.

Not replying to anyone in particular as my head is all over the place with this post, but I just want all to know I didn't get any funding from any organisation to open my shop I did it on my own as it was before SEE3 kicked in. Saying that SEE3 is an amazing organisation and doing a great job for the area as is The Forest Hill Society. This has to be my last post on this topic as I'm too passionate and emotional about this subject. I love FH too much and have got too emotionally involved to the point of reading in to posts and getting the wrong idea. I apologise if I have upset anyone with my posts, and hope The Market and Shops all do well. Hope all have a great evening. Hope we all find a solution at our meeting!

I agree with a lot of slondon's post. I've only lived in FH for 7 months (although v nearby since 2008) and while I have visited the lovely Dartmouth Rd shops plus the fab coffee shops near the station - and love them - it is next to impossible for me, as a carless, stay-at-home mum, to drag my two kids around those shops for any length of time during the week or weekend - my toddler would want to eat/handle everything/get bored and my mobile baby is starting to go the same way! So while, if I ever get a childfree minute I'd love to meander around (and I do do this, it's just REALLY rare!! And I always heartily recommend the centre and its environs to all my friends without kids plus my friends with just one v young baby) for us as a family the Horniman market has been a godsend and a way of actually getting to sample the shopping delights of the area WITH the kids in tow. We can look at produce, buy lunch and chat to sellers at the market whilst keeping one eye on toddler in sensory garden or clambering over low walls etc. It's much better *for families* than the wonderful Brockley market and also has the attraction of providing a guilt-free family morning out for the whole gang - going to the Horniman is always exciting for a 3yo, eating out and shopping in gift, art, clothes shops not so much and he is wise to that already!

I can't be sure but I would say most people attending the market have young families in tow too so we are likely highly representative, and probably more likely to repeat a market-museum-walk combination each weekend than couples or singletons who probably have more exciting lives and mix it up a bit more! Like previous posters, for us we are diverting cash, for definite, from Ocado and Sainsburys Sydenham, plus avoiding the need to sign up for Abel and Cole or similar, possibly Brockley but we only went there every couple of months anyway. Also the pricing issue is important - buying our veg, bread, light lunch and enjoying the process is lovely but not too costly, going into the shops on Lordship Lane or Dartmouth Rd is likely to be a more tempting and expensive affair and not one many young families can dally with too often, so the demographics of the regulars at the market probably reflects this too *wistfully laments having a salary and frittering away £20 on a nice top, sometime circa 2009*.

Anyway, this thread HAS made me think, and if the elusive moment arrives where baby is asleep in the sling and 3yo at nursery, I will try to head to Dartmouth Rd to start my Christmas shopping. I wish all traders and the market heaps of success and think the way the wonderful area of FH is going, there must be room in this town for the lot of you!!

Great post, Bluesuperted. As the father of a 3 y.o boy and twins under 6 months - I agree with your post in its entirety.