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Farmers' market in the Horniman Gardens
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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #181
19-11-2013 12:53 AM

There is an empty shop on D Rd and the more that respond to this will have more of a say to what goes in there. I will pass on all info.

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MightyMouse


Posts: 122
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #182
19-11-2013 07:09 AM

Next and Wallis, please. There's more to life - and especially to spending disposable income - than food.

This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 07:10 AM by MightyMouse.

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Tenbybelle


Posts: 25
Joined: Jul 2013
Post: #183
19-11-2013 08:34 AM

I would second a green grocers and fishmongers!

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Red67


Posts: 141
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #184
19-11-2013 09:31 AM

I think Michael pretty much said it earlier in so much as a fishmonger or greengrocer setting up shop now is highly unlikely due to the duplication and undercutting capability of the market....rents, rates, maintenance of a shop, staff etc etc go against anyone setting up shop against that - it might seem pedantic to bang on about this but it's a fact. I've said it before but this http://www.v22collection.com/about/ is just about the most exciting and (potentially) hugely transformative thing to happen to FH in a while, and i think it'll affect the footfall along D'mouth Rd significantly; hopefully traders across the whole of the town centre realise this and understand that there are more opportunities for capitalising on increased footfall coming their way (as opposed to up the hill)!

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Tenbybelle


Posts: 25
Joined: Jul 2013
Post: #185
19-11-2013 09:48 AM

Red67 - not sure having a veg stall one day a week at the farmers should really preclude having a shop that would offer a wider range, organic produce and fruit. I am not aware that the veg stall sells organic and it doesnt sell fruit. There is a stall there that sells great apples but other than that fruit isnt really covered. Does the market have a fish stall? Its never been there when I have visited.

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Red67


Posts: 141
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #186
19-11-2013 10:11 AM

Well, i (and quite a few other people) think that it would make it very difficult, going on my basic understanding of the economic realities of running a food shop. It wouldn't be a risk i'd want to take if i were trying to set up a small 'going concern' here now, and i do know a little bit about these things.... I'd really, really love to be proved wrong however, so i hope your optimism wins out, Tenbybelle. The fish stall was there in the second or third week (?) but hasn't been back since. Hence my comment querying the sustainability of the farmers market and guarantee of consistency of stalls/fresh produce etc. The fresh organic fruit and veg is nice though, and useful at the moment to fill a few gaps as i grow most of my own...

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #187
19-11-2013 10:18 AM

What I think would work on Dartmouth Road is a health food shop, not dissimilar from 'Well Being' in Sydenham, SBS Foods in East Dulwich or Provinder (for those who remember Forest Hill before 2007). Provinder stocked bread and some organic veg and survived in Forest Hill for over 30 years.

Although I would love to have a fishmonger on the high street, I can't see much chance of it happening (but then I wouldn't have predicted a cheese shop opening on Dartmouth Road). I have been giving some thought to how a fish shop would survive, and I could imagine a shop like the 'Sea Cow' in East Dulwich working in FH, serving wet fish and good quality fish and chips to eat in or take away.

The one other shop that so many people claimed we needed on the high street is a launderette. Since the London Road launderette has been closed I haven't heard anybody say we need a new launderette, but may be I have missed something. Is this something that we need as a new shop? (and the farmers market will hardly compete with)

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FFS


Posts: 23
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #188
19-11-2013 11:09 AM

A health food shop would be fantastic! I used to go to Provender regularly. Loved it and was very sad to see it go. Wow I forgot about that shop. A health food shop would get my vote. Especially if they stocked Suma products. Im all for workers co operatives Smile

As a very last nod in your direction P1971
"I don't feel anything for you and I won't as you only care about yourself and not the community, but good luck with all you do. I wish you the best. Px

That was really uncalled for. A low blow. Good job Im made of tough stuff.

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Tenbybelle


Posts: 25
Joined: Jul 2013
Post: #189
19-11-2013 11:20 AM

Red67 - I do stand corrected. I was simply giving my opinion of what I would like and which I thought was what was being canvased.

I will obviously defer to your no-doubt expertise in all things retail.

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #190
19-11-2013 11:43 AM

SMBS on Lordship Lane, rather than SBS? This is way more than a health food shop and is practically a model of the range of stock that is possible in a small store. Provender was never even remotely so well stocked and was much more "health food" orientated - had presumed that was why it had closed actually. Still, could work again now but I would prefer an SMBS type which does also sell good veg too.

P1971, while there is no doubting your enthusiasm, you do not hold a monopoly on community spirit nor do you display any with some of your comments. FFS is just as entitled to make a contribution as you are. May I recommend, thinking and re-reading your text a good while before hitting Post Reply? You can still remain passionate just with less haste. I hope you are able to move on constructively with these comments.

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blushingsnail


Posts: 371
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #191
19-11-2013 12:11 PM

There is of course the weekly fish stall every Thursday morning in FH between WH Smiths and William Hill.

Sydenham is only one stop away on the train for easy access to the health food shop, butcher/fishmonger, and DIY shop. (And for many of us living in the Vale we're lucky to be in walking distance of both FH and Syd, so we get the best of both town centres.)

In this day and age I don't think it reasonable to expect one of each type of shop on every local high street. But in this area we're fortunate to have a good range of shops spread over the HOP, FH and Syd town centres. We just need to get more people using them!

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SpringCat


Posts: 60
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #192
19-11-2013 12:43 PM

Why isn't Lordship Lane having the same problem?
There are shops competing with each other. Many residents of ED are now coming to the market on Saturdays, yet those shops still make money during the week! The same is for towns like Penge and Sydenham. (one FM in Penge and another in Crystal Palace). No one resents farmer markets. There are so many in London now that you just have to pick and choose. So if the one at the Horniman goes, people wanting to eat good food, good vegetables, as they used to be before the advent of Sainsbury and Tesco, go somewhere else. People who buy seasonal organic vegetables from internet companies, like Riverford, will continue to do so for the convenience and the quality.
Hasn't internet changed our way of shopping? So where is the problem? Why don't DR shops producing nice things, have a stall up at the Horniman? If that is the place to be seen, that's is where you have to be, even for few hours.

I was told that DR was a nice shopping area in the 50's and 60's. Who is the Enemy Number one, the Farmer Markets or the Big Supermarkets which have cut off trade in the area?

The farmers bring only what they produce/make on their land.
They also got expenses to think about, like transporting goods from one market to another, labour costs, stock and land. The organic vegetables stalls pay over £8,000 per year to have the land certified as organic. If they sold all their produce to supermarkets like Sainsbury, Tesco, Asda, etc..etc... for peanuts, they could not survive. Only by doing markets like that, they can now make a reasonable living.
I hope the market will continue in the New Year, become more interesting with new stalls and produces, so we all benefits, especially our children.

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 653
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #193
19-11-2013 01:29 PM

I would LOVE a health food shop on Dartmouth road!
At present I go to SMBS on lordship lane, and Wholefoods in Kensington to get what I can't get locally
If we opened a Healthfood shop it would mean the money I spend in those other stores would be spent on my doorstep.
Also I love the idea of a fish shop/SeaCow type place.
BUT how about if instead of fish and chips (which is provided elsewhere)
the restaurant side of it is Japanese?
Japanese food is now part of the mainstream and the nearest Japanese restaurants are in Catford and Crystal Palace.
Would be wonderful if they did takeaway too.
If the health food shop and fish shop/japanese restaurant opened locally I'd think I was living in paradise ThumbsupThumbsup

This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 01:31 PM by nottinghillbilly.

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 653
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #194
19-11-2013 01:34 PM

PS;
The fish van by the station is no good to me as I'm always rushing on my way to work then and have nowhere to keep the fish.
I hear he's superb though.
And I confess I never bother shopping in sydenham and go to Lordship Lane instead.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 376
Joined: May 2005
Post: #195
19-11-2013 01:36 PM

Hi SpringCat.

Personally, I wouldn't apportion any blame whatsoever to the Hornimans Farmers Market for any downturn in trade in Forest Hill, which I believe is/was a temporary blip and just one of those things that happen in retailing. The market is all positive as far as I'm concerned.

There is a joint initiative between local traders and the market organisers to promote commerce in Forest Hill but, unfortunately, there are strict criteria which prohibit many of our traders from actually selling there. I don't think that's a problem because imagination, creativity and tenacity are all coming into play to find ways of eniticing some of the market's clientelle to take a 2 minute walk down the hill - or to drive into Sainsburys 2 hour FREE FREE FREE car park (NO SPEND NECESSARY! and did I remember to mention that you get not 1 hour but 2 WHOLE HOURS FREE) - and to have a look around into all of our nooks & crannies to find our hidden gems. Once we've achieved that I know there will be more serious businesses who want to be a part of the action and we'll grow organically into a place that offers people what they want. It will happen!

By the way, I believe that Lordship Lane is different to Forest Hill in many ways so I don't think they will never be directly comparable. But there's no reason why our respective communities won't pop over the border for the odd this-or-that (providing that getting through border control isn't too much of a kerfuffle!).

This post was last modified: 19-11-2013 01:44 PM by Anotherjohn.

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SpringCat


Posts: 60
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #196
19-11-2013 01:58 PM

I did not apportion blame to the Farmers Market. I love it and hope it will stay there.
I am just following the thread when someone else said because of the this market, the trade in DR is going down.
No one has right to people customs, unless we are attracted to spend our money to a particular place.
Lordship Lane was just like DR two decades ago. Look at what they have achieved. It has become a very trend place to shop and be seen. The same can happen for FH.

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Belle


Posts: 88
Joined: Dec 2009
Post: #197
19-11-2013 02:08 PM

Personally I think parking is a MAJOR issue in Forest Hill and particularly Dartmouth Road. It's not very easy to park up and get back to the car in the time allotted for fear of a penalty fine. Yes the Sainsburys car park is free for two hours but by the time you've done your shop, you only have an hour left and that's not enough time to walk along DR and frequent all the lovely shops - BUNKA, B CARDS, DOOPOO, Stag & Bow plus some of the Pop Up shops when they're on. Plus I'm not even factoring in the wish to sometimes stop for a coffee and cake in The Montage and a browse the gallery.

Yes I can walk in but more often than not I tie in a visit to the town centre with a weekly trip to Sainsburys and as such I need my car as I can't lug my shopping half a mile home. Yes I could do my supermarket shop, take the car home and walk back in but then I've kind of lost the will to do so; not to mention the time lost in a busy working life (I can't be the only one to feel like this)!

I've often have to cut short my visit into FH because of the parking situation - it's SUCH A SHAME! East Dulwich simply does not have the same problem; yes the high street is busy but you can generally find a spot on one of the side roads. The council seem to want to make it as difficult as possible for car users for reasons that I'm at a loss to understand. Maybe because they wish to promote public transport, help the environment? But if more business opened up then surely that's more revenue in business rates not to mention potential new investment into the area. Clearly walking is healthier and more environmentally friendly but in reality people can't or won't because they're a) lazy (me included sometimes!) b) short on time - driving is quicker and c) practicality (you have kids or heavy shopping).

If the car parks and indeed the roads around DR where free/unrestricted (where possible) on Saturdays between the hours of say 11am and 4pm I am sure the shopkeepers of DR and FH in general would see a difference to footfall. It can't be a co-incidence that ED is thriving and has no parking restrictions (I appreciate that the residents of ED may have a little more disposable income if houses prices are anything to go by though!).

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Campervan Tim


Posts: 19
Joined: May 2013
Post: #198
19-11-2013 02:41 PM

I agree with John that we need to entice people from the Horniman end of FH down towards Dartmouth Road, especially the outside visitors and those who are relatively new to the area and may not yet know what gems are there. The Totally Locally stall at the market is a great idea.

I don't think the market is to blame for the downturn solely - I believe it has had some degree of impact. As have a number of other factors as I have posted elsewhere (John - thank you for your post on the other thread as I think we were talking at cross purposes and I do appreciate your follow up comment) but a reasonable part of it is also as John posted - just one of those things that happen in retail.

I don't use the market because I work most Saturdays but I use the Butchery and other fresh meat / veg / fish places that I encounter through my job and am sure I'd use it if I was free to do so. But I'd walk to it rather than drive.

Dartmouth Road is very tricky for a traffic issue at the moment and parking can a problem, but then so it is around Horniman Drive etc every weekend because of the sheer numbers of visitors but there are several car parks near the centre of FH. And I always wonder why should that should deter people from going anyway. I live at the far end of Dartmouth Road - almost in Sydenham - but I almost always walk to the Horniman, because it's not that far, parking is a nightmare, its healthier, its greener and given traffic, almost as quick. I have a child and we've done that since he was in a buggy.

For those looking for the child friendly option, there are places with wonderful playrooms like the Montage but tbh, those things are not needed for a place to be child friendly. We take our son to the Montage, to the Dartmouth Arms and Sylvan Post and to St Davids as well as using many of the shops. I would consider all these to be child friendly in that they allow children. Kids don't need to have a playroom to be welcomed. Many of these places have books / games for the kids to sit and use.

Forest Hill is a wonderful place and, having lived here for 10 years I love it. It would be amazing to have a few more nice shops replacing the empty, shuttered ones. Lets all use Dartmouth Road, London Road etc more and when we do so then more wonderful entrepreneurs like Pauline, like Stag & Bow, like St Davids and like Aga will see the potential. I'd love it to be full of more brilliant places like the ones that we have.

Soon, things will settle down and all those involved wil lwork the way through it.

Then we just need to solve the traffic light issue don't we John ;-)

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SpringCat


Posts: 60
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #199
19-11-2013 03:08 PM

I agree with you Belle and others on the traffic issue. Why can't we close those roads and have stalls there instead up at the Horniman? In Bromley high street traffic is restricted because of the market on.
Free parking behind the station would be ideal.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 376
Joined: May 2005
Post: #200
19-11-2013 06:04 PM

Just a quick one SpringCat - I want you to know that I didn't intentionally make any kind of suggestion that you were apportioning any blame to the market.

As many of you will have noticed, I haven't mastered the art of using the written word yet and in the past this has been the cause of misundertandings - as it has again in this instance.

Sorry!

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