Sandy, feel free to correct or supplement any omissions of balance I may have erroneously made.

Actually, the question seems to be quite a lot bigger now!

From reliable sources, the Horniman are to meet shortly with the police and Lewisham Licencing re the event as the traffic and health and safety implications caused a number of concerns in many circles. Apparently their alcohol and entertainment licence was for events of no more than 5000 people so clearly there has been a breach here however inadvertantly caused by the unexpected success of the cook out. However it would appear that if they are to consider hosting the event again or other events where similar numbers are expected then they will need to apply for a completely new licence for events up to 20000 people. This would enable them to hold several events of this nature if they are successful in their application. If they are to be successful in their application they will need to produce a strategy for handling the expected numbers of people and additional traffic produced for each event. The same question arises as to whether this will pose so many restrictions on any such event for it to be enjoyable and worthwhile.

I am getting some contact numbers and names and will post them as soon as I am able to in case others find this useful.

I'm looking forward to Fab Film Co's next event in the Horniman Gardens on Thursday. It's Baz Luhrman's Moulin Rouge. For me, part of the pleasure of these evenings is watching the sun go down over London from such a fantastic viewpoint.

Thanks scipio for reminding me about this. I'm there. It is such a magic atmosphere at The Bandstand. Here's the link for anyone else tempted by Moulin Rouge! at The Bandstand in Horniman Gardens this Thursday at 8pm. They've listed it as Moulin Rouge (2005) but wasn't it 2001? Or is this some kinda director's cut? Does anyone know?

"reverendlionelblair" could be a reference to 2 people.

One is Tony Blair. His patronising sermons and holier than thou attitude earned him a column in private-eye, sending him up as a Vicar.
Lionel Blair is a camp British dancer and actor.

There is no obvious connection between the two of them, so there are no clues to the reverend's take on this matter from his name.

Back to the issue, I'm quite concerned about this thread as I find myself agreeing with Roz.

I think these vents at Horniman's should be encouraged. Not sure why some are objecting.

Not sure what a jerk cookout is but no problem with the event in the park and I hope those who attended had a good time.

Voice of reason

I wouldn't consider myself a troll (whatever that is), I would just consider myself a resident of the area who hopes to see it develop economically, all the right things are here, it just needs a bit of a kick.

The JC is the kind of thing that makes me despair about FH though. Any other area would positively encourage large groups of people coming to it (other than little twee villages) but in FH it is just seen as a burden and as something to moan about because it makes it difficult to park. Its that kind of small minded 'little Englander' attitude that makes my blood boil; and thats not about race, people of all ethnicities are susceptible to that kind of thinking.

I don't have time to 'troll' you (thanks for the link, very helpful) but I do have time to aggravate people I think are being unreasonable and to point out where small-mindedness comes to the fore, as it has on this topic and as it did with the development of the Pools (thank god they preserved Louise House, now we can all look at it's beauty forever).

I thought I made some valid points. As for the race issue, apologies if offence caused but I have experienced enough of it myself to know when that kind of implicit racism is being expressed.

Oh and the name comes from Mark and Lard's breakfast show on Radio One in the late nineties. Cellar Door, I have never professed to being a reverend and anyone who seeks religious or personal advice from an online Reverend on a local web discussion site is probably beyond help anyway.

When you look at the results of the poll after 68 votes, you see that 40% of people do positively encourage this sort of event. They voted 'Yes' to keeping the Jerk Cookout in Horniman.
32% of people have concerns and I think some of these are legitimate concerns that should be addressed (without forcing out the Jerk Cookout that 40% of people want to keep).

25% want it out and I tend to share your feelings about this small minority who voted against the Jerk Cookout. Not Racist, just a little disappointing that they see banning this event as the only way forward. I'm glad some of us (around 6,000 of us) did not give up on keeping the pool in Forest Hill. You don't make Forest Hill a better place to live by expelling all the most successful facilities and events.

Michael, you seem to be putting words into peoples mouths. As far as I can recall and see, few have actually mentioned ' banning' the JC event. That is very emotive terminology and effectively means stopping it from taking place, anywhere, any time, ever. People who voted against it at the Horniman did so likely as not because it simply is not of an appropriate scale for the Horniman Gardens, with or without marshalling or other wonderful but highly impractical ideas. From what I can gather this is not a minority view outside this forum as I gather that even the Horniman themselves are in agreement about this as are the police and Lewisham Council. And also seemingly a number of attendees who could not get in and when they did, could not hear the music well hence are themselves asking for a bigger stage and louder music. Can you see that happening at the Horniman. However 40% of 68 is less than 30 people so hardly a statistically significant representation of what the local community thinks.

So would you argue for keeping an event of this size in at the Horniman even though it meant stifling its growth? Presumably the organiser's and regular participants want an even bigger and more successful event in successive years, and it is unlikely to be able to optimise its success on that site for the various reasons discussed. Everyone seems to forget other potential sites in Forest Hill such as Blythe Hill fields, and Mayow Park on the Sydenham borders which hold greater potential due to their size.

Sorry, but the little Englander references are a little rich and make me laugh ; someone likened the various arguments to those around the Pools. At the centre of the Pools debate was the little issue of ' Willow Way is not in Forest Hill, its 200 yards away in Sydenham'. and ' Its much too further to walk' and other tales of fear and loathing about the area being 'red light 'which were circulated around the local community by scaremongers. I particularly found it rich to have someone(one of these famous women waving clipboards) warn me about Willow Way being 'red light' when there was in fact a brothel extremely close to the existing pools site. Always struck me as a rather petty and frivolous argument throughout this whole saga. If the Pool had ended up in Willow Way, it would still technically have been in' Forest Hill' in my view, but no, its a couple of hundred yards over the border. Bring your passports as well as your goggles please.

The issue of whether large events are encouraged or not in Forest Hill will always surely go back to how people 'see' their local area and what they want from their immediate surroundings. Some time ago there was a survey on the future of the town centre and I recall that the outcome was that most people did not particularly want grand plans or excessive busy- ness. Similarly in the Horniman survey a few years back there were aspirations from some members of the public to turn it into a virtual theme park including I believe a look out tower and revolving restaurant, if my memory serves me correctly. Fortunately most of the respondents and the Horniman themselves took a more conservative view in line with its surroundings. Therefore that considered I would like to know how by any interpretation can people voicing concerns about large scale events, grands projets and the implications of same, be considered to be in the minority in any sense of the word. Personally and openly speaking I do not want to live next to a major entertainment centre with all the hassle, car and foot traffic, and no doubt CPZ area/parking meters that will follow. I know we have a long way to go before that stage and the Horniman is not Wembley, but still, peoples views on the degree of public attention their home gets should be respected and not ridiculed.

All this is increasingly academic anyway- the Horniman have an existing entertainment licence for a capacity of 5000 people and that figure has been assessed as appropriate by the Council and the Met's licensing department. From what I hear its unlikely that the Horniman themselves will want to apply for an extension to this number which would be necessary in order to host another JC or similar event. If people want to keep large events in and around Forest Hill then it would make better sense to assist in the search for a more suitable venue that can cope with the capacity of 10-20000 people and allow such events to take place comfortably ,safely, and reduce aggravation to both attendees and the existing community.

It proves my point that just by rephrasing the question in a poll, you can get the 'desired' result.

Also I hope the brothels were represented in the pools consultation, because I cannot remember Lewisham giving us breakdown by red light district.

Actually I've just had an idea of what we can do with Louise House.....

Roz,
the minority of people voting 'no' are voting to end the Jerk Cookout at Horniman. You might not want to use the word ban, but that is what it is - a ban on a specific event, or possibly all large events, in the Horniman. I had not intention of suggesting that you want to ban all jerk chicken.

I do not think either Mayow Park or Blythe Hill are particularly suitable venues as they as not as well connected to public transport, so a no vote means moving the Jerk Cookout beyond Forest Hill (unless Peckham Rye and Crystal Palace are now in Forest Hill alongside Willow Way). I think you show exactly where you are coming from when you suggest moving the event to Blythe Hill. You don't like people parking in your street or the extra traffic and would prefer it to be somebody else's problem.

The point I make about the pool is that the majority of people do want to see positive things in Forest Hill and welcome people coming to the area. Rather than deciding to take the easy route and move the pool outside the town centre, or ejecting the jerk cookout from Horniman, we would prefer to see a compromise that keep them in Forest Hill if we can find a way to make them work - we did it for the pool and I am sure we can do the same for the cookout. It is a shame that you are still not prepared to consider any ways in which the Jerk Cookout could remain in Horniman Gardens.

Just a reminder to all members - the poll is still open here.

Michael, you seem to carefully avoid addressing the question of the event being restricted in its growth by the various controls suggested by instead launching brickbats at the people who raise concerns.
I'd be happy for the event or any event to continue at the Horniman provided it was within the terms of its existing alcohol and entertainment licence, which is 5000 maximum as confirmed with the Council and is what all other events comply with. The Cook Out event has the potential for 20 000 as we have seen. I gather that you would rather see the event curtailed in numbers attending solely in order to keep it at the Horniman so I hope the organisers and attendees/potential attendees agree with you and that it works financially for them, as this is realistically the only way the event can continue at this location.
I have suggested that time is better spent looking for alternative venues that keep it in the area/south east London/Lewisham which I think will be the best that can be achieved, but if blinkers go on re the Horniman or nothing then even that might slip away.

With respect,you also live in a cul de sac well away from the fray so you probably won't have the experience that many of us did re noise and commotion from frustrated parkers expecting us residents to have already moved out for the day, so please don't criticise the rest of us who are more immediately affected and hence more concerned.

As for sentiments such as 'lets welcome people coming to the area' and views expressed about people being too concerned about parking capacity in their street, I assume now from this that previous views about the Tyson Road proposals have now gone into reverse and the FHS is now open and welcome to this wonderful new development in its entirety and will be supporting the new planning application wholeheartedly. The high density proposals will bring a large number of people into the area and no doubt economic benefit. With all these additional cars arriving with them hopefully our local petrol stations can stay in business.

I can confirm that the Forest Hill Society has submitted an objection to the Tyson Road development, not because of the traffic issues associated or because the density is too great, but that the density levels is not suitable for the location, results in bad design, and inconveniences many local people permanently. I find this a very different situation to a single event per year.

You are right that I was not personally effected as I was enjoying the day at Horniman. However, I know plenty of people who were badly effected in a variety of ways. Despite this most I have spoken to in the local area support events in Horniman, as do 40% of people who voted in the poll (for what it is worth).

I am sure that the organisers are quite capable of looking for another location if they feel that the Horniman is too small, they do not need me or you to do this for them. However, if they do wish to continue in the Horniman then they will need creative thinking and possibly the assistance of local people to make it work. Whilst I understand your concerns I would prefer to work at ways to resolve them inside Forest Hill rather than outside - is that really so awful?

Michael - what question did you pose to get this majority reaction? Is anyone actually against events being held in Horniman Gardens? or is it just for events where the density level is not suited to the location -which is the argument used by the Forest Hill Society regarding the Tyson development.

In additon 40% of the poll is a miniscule number of people but also less than half of the total!

You are quite right , gingernuts, for wanting answers - and Contrary Mary's post 231 above identified some of the infomation required. I suspect there may be something stirring behind the scenes but nobody is yet willing to provide the details on this forum. Have you thought of writing direct to Janet Vitmayer, the Horniman's Director?

Gingernuts,

I did not pose any question, I thought I was referring to the voting from the question agreed amongst forum participants. Assuming that people wanted their votes counted when they voted, I feel it reasonable to refer to the result. 40% may be a small number of people but it is still more than those trying to stop Horniman holding any form of Jerk chicken cookout ever again, which I understand is your position.

There is a big difference in density levels for a single event and density levels for day to day living. For events there are a variety of ways to control density when necessary.

Having spoken to Janet Vitmayer about the issue, I can confirm that Horniman is looking at a number of issues relating to large events. They then need to make a decision regarding how they handle large events. She also told me that, in response to some letters she had recieved, she has written to apologise for the unreasonable level of inconvenience caused to local residents.

The sad thing is that, while people are dealing responsibly with the issues behind the scenes, the reaction by some on this forum has been noted by people from all the surrounding areas - see http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.p...e66cd971ec
'whinging', 'moan and criticise anything', 'dull bitch fest', 'Is it because I's Black'. That is what people think of us.

Sounds like it's the Sydenham forum that has the problem. What's wrong with SE23 residents expressing their views on their own webiste? What ever happened to the good old saying 'I dont agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it'? - within the law obviously!

Michael, having looked at this link you are surely over reacting. This is one thread on the Sydenham forum with contributions from someone who didnt attend and another who seems to think SE23.com is a bitch fest generally (this phrase was not referring to the Jerk Chicken thread specifically) How do you see this as 'all surrounding areas' as if we should be somehow ashamed of ourselves? Really!