That's a HUGE relief! (...for the time being at least).
I note that the planners didn't use any of the FHSoc's Anti-Crime arguments in their reasons for refusal - except perhaps very tenuously in (3) 'It is considered that the intensification of the hostel use on the application site will mitigate against the objective of delivering an inclusive, mixed and balanced community'. Would it have been politically incorrect of them to point an accusing finger at this place for the anti-social behaviour that clearly emanates from some of its residents and causes unnecessary aggravation for many of Forest Hill's residents and shopkeepers?
Does anyone in the FHSoc know how confident the planners are of making this stick if it goes to an Appeal? I just worry that the reasons don't look strong enough to deter the applicant's planning consultants and I see this as merely the end of round one.
There is a new planning application being prepared.
I met with the developer and architect yesterday evening to discuss some of their plans, which are still in the early stages.
They are still planning a new building on the side which will have capacity for almost 200 individuals, but there are some significant changes that I believe will make it more acceptable to neighbours than the previous plan.
They have agreed to arrange a meeting to discuss the plans, ideally prior to submitting the planning application, so that feedback can be taken into account.
Based on the plans I saw yesterday many of the concerns have been addressed, at least to some extent, but there are still some issues that need the architects need to look at.
My other concern is that, although the current management have improved the behaviour of residents, this is not guaranteed in the future. A hostel of this size can be a positive part of the wider community, or it can be have a serious impact on the quality of life for shops and neighbours. Much of this is down to who is housed there and what support if offered. These are not necessarily planning issues but could potentially be included as undertakings for the future management of the building within the planning application.
Back in 2012 you mentioned there were 120 residents...
'There are concerns that in addition to the 120 current residents, the expansion to allow space for 60 young ex-offenders would have a detrimental impact on the current residents and neighbours. The possible closure of the police station in front of the site will do nothing to improve the situation for neighbours'
Well that was, and still is, bad enough and now we're talking about upping it to nearly 200 residents!
It doesn't bear thinking about - especially with the reduced numbers of police on our streets to deal with a lot of their drunken and otherwise anti-social behaviour.
This is like telling us that a bomb's just about to go off - and I'm not sure that Dartmouth Road can take it.
If we were talking about another 60 young ex-offenders then I would completely agree with you. There are plans to house slightly different categories of residents, to create a more 'inclusive, mixed and balanced community'.
My biggest concern is what guarantees are provided that this continues to be the case, and that we don't end up with some of the people who are hardest to deal with from boroughs across London - as happened a few years ago.
I think we all need to see the details of the scheme and talk to the developers about their scheme, and they do appear to be willing to engage with the community this time round (after taking completely the wrong approach last time). But I wanted to let people know that there will be a planning application.
If there is evidence of crime or anti-social behaviour that you know or believe is linked to Miriam Lodge - please contact the police or the managers of the building. I'm happy to pass on any feedback to the owner if there are issues or individuals that need to be dealt with. But at present the police are claiming that residents are generally well behaved and they do not have a problem with the management or the conduct of the residents - that is a very different situation from their view two years ago.
I can't believe this.
This is probably why I and other's got the following letter this week. I will leave out name's, email address and tel no's as I'm not sure if I'm able to disclose them or not on forums, and please excuse any spelling mistake's etc. Here goes.
Dear Neighbour
You may recall I wrote to you on 13 Decamber last year introducing myself and letting you know that I am the support manager at Miriam Lodge. This is a follow up letter to update you and let you know that I am still keen to hear from you with regard to any issues you may have with Miriam Lodge or its residents.
Over the last year we have introduced sevral improvements at Miriam Lodge. I consultation with the police and safer neighbourhood team, we have tightened our referral procedure. We have vastly improved the facitities and services available to our residents. You may have noticed that we are now conducting twice daily neighbourhood patrols in the surrounding area to make sure that none of our residents are engaging any form of anti social behaviour.
We are currently considering launching a not for profit cafe/bakery on either Dartmouth Road or Kirkdale. This will be run by and for the benefit of the Miriam Lodge residents with full time support staff. The aim of this project is to help our residents engage positively with the local community and to give tham an opportunity to gain work skills. It is also hoped that the business can ultimately fund new activities and programs within Miriam Lodge. If you are interested in getting involved, then please let us know. We are just starting to develop this concept and we are looking to get feedback and suggestions from our neighbours (e.g. viable sites, suitable businesses, staff)
If you have any issues to raise about any aspect of Miriam Lodge or it's residents, then please get in touch ....................... Contact details.
End of letter!
Michael If you want a copy of this letter let me know.
I didn't want to say what my own views are on the same post as the letter I copied word for word except contact details. So here they are.
I don't recall recieving a letter last December, but I may have misplaced it.
I will be responding to the letter I recieved, stating any experiences I have had with residents, but most issues happen probably after I close.
I have not noticed any change in neighbourhood patrol during the day.
These are just my personal opinions and what I see.
I do strongly think that the number of unit's proposed, no matter how it is run is just too many, especially as there are so many schools dotted around that area.
I really think a petition need's to get up and running asap to find out if locals want or don't want this to go ahead.
I can draw up a petition and will run it past Richard and Michael FH Soc. Then Anotherjohn and yourself to see what you all think. I really feel strongly about this so all opinion's would be great!
I must also admit that I do help a couple of the residents that are trying to help themselves. One in particular! Many shop keepers have a go and yes hit her or argue with her because she stole a 70p toilet roll, but she is lovely when sober. if you just listen and give time to her. So I am a little torn, but the people I try to talk to and that listen to me and know I will never give them money for alcohol and will never let them in my shop, but will happily give them a sandwich and a chinese take away on there birthday are making progress. I hope this carries on. Maybe I hope for too much, but maybe not!
I think it would be inappropriate to set up a petition until you know properly what you are opposing. It is not for me to detail what is being proposed, but for the developer to do this at a proper meeting with local residents and businesses.
If you have a regular problem with specific individuals then I would recommend speaking to the managers of Miriam Lodge to see if they can provide some assistance to the individual. They have provided you with their contact details to enable this to take place easily.
If you don't keep a record of incidents, contact the management, or the police, then there is no evidence to present of concerns and it will not be able to be properly considered as an issue when it comes to any planning application.
According to the management and the police Miriam Lodge is no longer a significant problem and does not generate crime hotspots of any type. If you disagree with this then evidence needs to be provided.
If, on the other hand, this hostel is helping to rehabilitate some people, providing suitable accommodation for vulnerable people, and helping them get into employment, then I hope it is something that the community will support.
Michael, you said only yesterday, 'My other concern is that, although the current management have improved the behaviour of residents, this is not guaranteed in the future'. So it really doesn't matter what assurances the developer is giving us at the moment because it's all just sweet talk to get the local community on board to get this application passed.
Of course it's a good thing that the wider community of the borough of Lewisham can be part of helping to integrate vulnerable and many quite difficult people (to be polite) into local jobs and homes etc - but not 200 of them dumped on our small town and concentrating all of the associated problems that brings onto us alone. We'd all need to be pre-trained as social workers and Community Police Officers before this could go ahead - YEAH RIGHT!!!
I've been in Forest Hill since 1971 and I have been involved with the good, the bad and the very, very ugly throughout so you can mark my words - the prospect, let alone the reality, of this thing happening is bad for the town centre.
This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 10:01 AM by Anotherjohn.
AnotherJohn,
Thank you for quoting me back at myself, but let me add the bit that I said that you didn't quote:
'These are not necessarily planning issues but could potentially be included as undertakings for the future management of the building within the planning application'.
In other words there are some 'assurances' that can be built into the building use and I have seen some interesting clauses added the planning permission for roughly similar establishments in another part of the borough.
What does matter is that people are aware of the potential planning application, that we express our concerns, and that we listen to the developers plans.
I strongly feel that the number of resident's living at Miriam Lodge at the moment is only just about managable, but if the number's increase I think it will be a complete recipe for disaster regardless of how it is run.
My opinion's are only based on what I see during the day so I can't comment on any evening/nightime activities.
I agree Michael, I wasn't totally fair to you. My beef isn't with you though because I know you do great work for the us, which I really do appreciate - so let's get that straight.
It's the existing operation and its proposed expansion that I object to - despite any 'assurances' and conditions which may be written-in to any grant of permission.
It's great that you are engaging, on our behalf, with the developers and the planners and I'm totally aware of many of the guidelines, parameters and political correctness which limit the possibilities of squashing this application but my own raw, street-wise intuition/commonsense says NO.
Thank you for all your efforts and for keeping us all posted on this Michael - and I'm sorry for being a thorn in your side.
Last night around 6.30/7pm 3 ambulances, 2 police vans and 1 car turned up at the road opposite For Your Eyes Only. I think that's Derby Hill but please correct me if I'm wrong. This was because a resident of Miriam Lodge was asking passers by to call an ambulance for her. A few local's must have done which is great, but she was just drunk and after a few calls to emergency services lots turned up. This takes this service away from others that really do need to use these services. I need to let all know what I see. This also caused mayhem with traffic on Dartmouth Road last night.
I understand the owners at Miriam Lodge are considering putting forward a new proposal to expand and add a five storey extension on their existing site. Miriam Lodge already comprises of an imposing 8 storey building.
For those who wish to attend their pre-planning public consultation (April 3 at 7pm), please see attached their letter about this. This will enable all find out more about their plans and ask questions about this.
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