After the announcement at the FH Assembly last week that the pools project was well underway (see my other comment about this elsewhere) and that demolition to clear the site would commence soon, it seems that the first priority has been to decimate the 'pocket' park; the trees at the entrance and inside have just been removed.

I realise this park was for the chop in the grand scheme, but it's a shame to see it go. Although sadly a bit of a Tennents zone, I thought it was a lovely little park.

Let's hope it's loss can be seen as a guarantee that the pools are really happening.

Since no one else appears to have posted the link to the latest designsFlikr Link

Ooh. Thanks, Mattluke.

I've made it my desktop background.

Is that really sad?

I agree that losing any public green space in se23 is very very sad, but it was an awkward shape and underused. And is being sacrificed for a (hopefully) good public facility.

I guess to rebuild the back of the pools, (leaving the front intact) meant the park had to go first. But the demolition work is a guarantee of nothing except that the repair option is no longer available.

While I fully expect the pool to be rebuilt as close as reasonable to the draft proposals we were all shown last year, the history of this project suggests that at some point Lewisham council will want to wiggle out of their commitment. I doubt I'm alone in feeling this.

The sooner the better the day comes when the doors open on the new pools and trust and confidence can also start to be rebuilt with Lewisham council.

Now that the park has been cleared, it has struck me just how beautiful the old pools building actually is! The walk up Dartmouth Road has suddnely become interesting and although I am sorry that the majority of these buildings will go (I love the glass roofs), I think its very exciting to see what will be coming next. I live almost directly opposite the park and personally, it always struck me as a very dark, ominous piece of ground. I hope the new pools will allow some space for a bit of green landscaping to make up for the loss of the trees. Roll on two years of loud and filthy construction work outside my front door!!

I think the way the pools proposal is going to work is that there should be no 'net loss' of open space in the new scheme from the current pocket park.

The last set of plans I saw showed a landscaped square/park roughly in the same place as the existing pocket park but related much more clearly and openly to the side of the swimming pool building (so its not so much of a cul de sac).

There is also intended to be some open space at the front of the building but this depends on the arrangements for drop off etc.

Next stakeholder meeting to see the progress on the designs is Thursday night so if there is anything of note I will report back after then.

I do have a concern, which I am nervous about mentioning (bearing in mind the fragility of the economy and the imminent elections), but it seems to me that the mass of the plant area will completely obscure the view of the 'landmark' frontage when approaching from Forest Hill station.

Are there any visualisations - other than the rather sketchy ones on the flikr link - which show the intended views from other angles?

Yes, I have that concern to. I think to some extent some blocking of the frontage is inevitable to fit the scheme but the scale of the block next to the frontage does seem to have grown recently and has exacerbated the problem.

There are other visualisations but the Council will not let anyone have a copy to take away from any meetings either in paper form or digitally. They haven't really given a good reason why but I have asked several times.

I will raise your concern at the stakeholders meeting tomorrow.

Thats encouraging to know. The picture of the deisgn on the link that has been posted does seem to show a very large modern and imposing building which i agree, could obscure the frontage which we have striven to hard to keep. A softer appearance with green landscaping could help though. I can wait.

I've only ever been able to see the side of the pools when walking up Dartmouth Road (from the station) and the whole building is hidden when the trees are in leaf until you get level with Clyde Vale (see Google maps street view). I'm one of the horrid people who hates the grim and dark Victorian frontage so the new bit on side is fine. For me it's just a shame the frontage can't be as light and airy as it appears in the artist's impression.

At the local assembly, it was mentioned that the A&M design had severely underestimated the space required for plant and that the modern building would be much bigger as can be seen when the Flickr image is compared to these images from their proposal (click to enlarge images)
   
   
It was also pointed out that A&M had proposed white terracotta tiles for the cladding - something which Limbricks were reconsidering given the mass of the new building.

Limbricks had also changed the internal layout of the building (because of the lay of the land) so that the pools were now separated by the changing rooms. This also meant that the upstairs had changed. From what I remember, the layout downstairs was now

• learner pool - changing - main pool instead of
• changing - main - learner

• studios - gym - open space instead of
• studios - open space - gym

At the pools stakeholder meeting last night the architects presented their most recent set of scheme proposals for the site.

These have begun to address many of the concerns that have been raised about the bulk of the building on the frontage although it is still quite large.

The internal layout is as described by New Forrester with the main pool next to the remains of the pocket part, then the changing rooms and then the learner pool. They have said that this allows them to more easily be used independantly, should the need arise. And it does allow for better side lighting of both pools.

There are two entrances to the building, one into the front door of the retained superintendants house which will contain the reception, offices and WC's. The second entrance is on the approach from the Town Centre. The two entrances are connected internally with a central 'mall' that also gives access to the cafe (which is on the north east corner of the building) and the changing rooms/gym/studios on the upper floor.

The pool changing rooms have been the focus of much discussion and they have now proposed a solution that combines a changing village (mixed changing with cubicles) and make and female group change areas.

The majority of the pocket park (about three-quarters?) is retained as open space next to the pool frontage, the bit that is lost is replaced by a new bit of open space in front of Tawcross House (??).

There is a coach drop off and disabled parking in front of the building but other wise it is 'apparenty' all pedestrian space.

Generally things are progressing well but there are some key details that need to be resolved and further developed. In particular the materials for the new part of the building and the frontage and the addition of a 'lobby' on the front of the retained superintendants house.

It is unfortunate not to be able to post the designs but we are not allowed to see them outside of specific meetings until the consultation events that they are planning for the second half of March 2010.

They are planning a series of events over two weeks with schools, residents, other groups etc and the exhibition will be in different locations around Forest Hill and Sydenham during this period. The programme will be well advertised and we were told that the exhibition material would also be made available digitally.

The Council are also planning to start the demoltion works in April, although nothing is likely to come down straight away.

A planning application will be submitted end of April/early May and they expect a decision towards the end of July.

Construction is planned to commence towards the end of 2010.

The main and learner pools are next to each other at the bridge, and there is one lifeguard to over look both pools.
Can someone clarify if 2 lifeguards will be needed if the 2 FH pools are separated by changing rooms?

Is it that the separate learner pool will only be open for schools, private swimming lessons and birthday parties, (all of which have separately funded supervision)?
Maybe this is the best use of the learner pool.
Or should this pool also be generally available for families/younger children?

I would have thought for both families and schools, it would be better to have the pools closer together, especially for adults with children in both pools. Any thoughts before this is all set in stone?

For reasons of parent vigilence I would also suggest and like to be able to see both pools - perhaps some sort of sliding screen/door arrangement would be possible to allow partitioning off during private parties etc? However this may impact on the M+E design especially the air con system so may be too expensive. Beckenham have a glass partition which allows parents to watch both pools from various angles.

Perryman - I think two lifeguards will definitely be needed and it is noticeable at the Bridge when I have been their recently that they do always seem to have two lifeguards on duty. But this has sometimes led to the small pool being closed due to short staffing.

I think its really important that the small pool (and large pool) is used for a mix of groups/lessons AND family groups and I won't be happy if it isn't.

Roz - In the plans for Forest Hill it will be impossible to see both pools at the same time as they are either side of the changing rooms. Its going to have to be a choice of one or the other. Both pools will have much better places to sit and watch what is going on though. It must be quite an unlikely scenario to need to watch both pools at once? Getting one set of lessons is hard enough, getting two children having lessons in adjacent pools at the same time sounds impossible!!

I don't think it is going to be possible to change this now as their whole design is based around this arrangement? Do many people have children in separate pools at the same time, if they can't swim at all or well they would be in the small pool with an adult anyway?

The Council have now announced the dates for the forthcoming consultation on the pools scheme, prior to their submission of a planning application in April/May this year. They have asked the stakeholder group to help publicise these times as well as posters and flyers that they will be distributing from next week.

The consultation will take place as follows:

Wednesday 17th/24th March - 4.30-6.30pm by Forest Hill Station
Thursday 18th/25th March - all day (9am-8pm) in Forest Hill Library
Friday 19th/26th March - 5-7pm Sainsburys, Forest Hill
Saturday 27th March - 10am-3pm by Forest Hill Station (architects present)

Please go along and see what you think!

See poster about the consultation......

  Forest Hill Pools A4.pdf (Size: 594.81 KB / Downloads: 339)

I have been at the Stakeholders' Meetings along with Satchers and she represents the informtion given and the discussion well.

I think many aspects of the design are good. The right sort of provision is being made and in a sensible way. My thoughts are:

1) A lot is being sacrificed on the Dartmouth Road side for a coach drop off. The Council seem to be insisting on this, even though it means little chance to green that side of the building. I am unclear about how much a coach drop off would be used.
2) I do not like the glass porch on the old facade front. A lot of effort has been made to keep this facade. It seems a pity to wreck the look of it wth this porch thing. I accept that heat needs to be retained, but surely this bit could be internal?
3) There may be a need to be clearer about the entrance. At the moment there will be an entrance on both the North and East sides. A lot of effort is being made to make the East side accessible. If this was less used as an entrance the elaborate and space taking ramp could be removed (given that the new entrance will be accessible). I favour an increased emphasis on the North side, with a bigger sign on the side of the new block facing the pavement.

These are detailed points. In other ways the design is very striking and successful, with some real beauty in the light into the building on the North and South sides. I hope it will look stunning at night.

oops...

I meant to say "with a bigger sign on the new block facing towrds the station".