PPS As far as I can see, the Mayors dilemmas , political standing, and of course, current employment status, will be more seriously affected if the pools are not delivered at all. The point seems to be being missed that having a pool delivered in 2011 only 6 minutes walk from the previous one is quite a little more vote worthy than not having a pool considered until 2012.

Lets really imagine the headlines;

' Mayor loses election because electorate refused to travel 200 m further to new pool site'


'Community in uproar after Mayor opens spanking new swimming facilities within budget and programme which saved them all ?3million'.

Thats it from me today, I am sure you are all relieved....

The online petition seems pretty clearly to favour Option 2 to me!

The petition makes it clear that swimming is wanted on the Dartmouth Road site 'as soon as possible'. That should not be confused with an option that leaves us without swimming until 2015.

If the council proceed to give us one option that is 'wait until 2012 before we might find more money', I (personally) could not vote for that. But I see no reason to vote for an option (Willow Way) because it is the second worst option for Forest Hill.

Personally I do not care what the headlines say about the mayor or any other politicians. This is not a campaign to make the mayor look stupid or to win him the next election, it is a campaign to make sure he, and the council officers, make the best decision for Forest Hill.

I agree with you entirely Gaz.

I've been out the last two weekends getting people to sign the petition. As far as I'm concerned, I'm asking people to sign up for option 2 against option 3 (Of course it's not expressed like that because most people don't understand that there were originally 3 options - but it's for a pool in Dartmouth Road and not for a pool in Willow Way).

Everybody who has been with me getting people to sign the petition think the same way and have ben explaining to people - "we don't want a pool in WW despite the extra cost and delay, we want it in Dartmouth Road."

And everyone signing the petition think that they are signing for a preference for DR against Willow Way.

Why else would they be signing?

To quote Nasaroc -''Everybody who has been with me getting people to sign the petition think the same way and have ben explaining to people - "we don't want a pool in WW despite the extra cost and delay, we want it in Dartmouth Road."

I'm sorry, but how is this realistic , particularly in this economic climate, to say ''despite the extra cost and delay we want it in Dartmouth Road' regardless? I don't think so.

It's been good enough to get almost 3,000 people to sign the petition to date. Of course, the real test will come when the consultation result is known.

I feel very strongly that people will opt for a pool in Dartmouth Road despite cost and time disadvantages. It's the right thing for the site, the right thing for Dartmouth Road and the right thing for Forest Hill. Putting a pool in Willow Way will be a loss for FH for all time. It will set back FH as civic centre and as a commercial centre. I am confident that people will place the long term future of FH first.

Nasaroc is 'confident that people will place the long term future of FH first.' I'd have thought that what should come first is the health and well-being of the people who live in this part of London and who want to have an easily accessible swimming pool soon.

On the transport for london website, the walking journey time between clyde vale (Dartmouth Rd Opposite the existing pools) and Willow way (Kirkdale) is estimated at 10 minutes.
It also estimates WW is a 20 min walk from FH station.
Presumably they factor in all age ranges and abilities to come up with an average walking speed.

So Willow way is not 'here'. It is not just 6 mins up the road, but for the average se23er (living within 10mins of the station), at least a 30min walk.

Most se23 non drivers will get the bus. And like drivers, once they are on the 176 say, they'll have a number of pools within a 15mins journey (Crystal Palace and Beckenham spa), so Willow way will be mainly competing on price and facilities, rather than convenience.

Unless they built something really special in this er... distant industrial back street...I cant see myself/family ever visiting it.

Perryman:

I think way too much weight is given to the location of WW (and especially its crime of being classified as SE26 (even if it does lie within the FH ward!)). By taking a purely dispassionate view on the provision of pools to FH/Lewisham, I really cannot see a problem with locating them at DR or at WW.*

To put Perryman's timings into context, the transport for london website also gives the current pools site as being a 10 minute walk from Forest Hill station using the same data as above (and so by your above assumption, se23ers on average live a 20 minute walk away from the current site).

I think those that would have walked this '20 minutes' previously wouldn't be fazed by a few more minutes' walk to get to a health/exercise venue. Those that previously hopped on a bus would have to sit on it for another 3 minutes to get to WW. If they were really lazy they could get on a bus at the stop opposite the pools (thus spending their money whilst walking past the DR parade of shops on the way to the stop! ).

Gaz
*I am also far from convinced of the importance of the pools to trade in FH and DR. These businesses have operated without the pools' passing trade for what will be 3 years this Friday now. As nice as Option 2 is, it is conceivable that these businesses will have to go without for at least another 6 years - at what point are these businesses no longer dependent on the pools?

One thing I can totally understand though, is the desire for another focal/destination spot for FH (in the mold of the Hornimans). I personally though, would still rather have pools 'now' rather than the potential of some 'destination' pools in the future. So unless and until the Option 2 timeframe is shortened and its certainty of actually being built is firmed up I cannot support this option.

(I'm going to try and not post anything further on this debate now - unless developments emerge on getting Option 2 feasibly built before 2012!)

I agree with Gaz that benefits to other businesses of a pool are overated.

For decaded only the sweet shop ober the road who benefited. Hardly benefiting the young persons teeth.

When it comes to predicting when or if a new swimming facility will be built, Lewisham is like a duck out of water.

Apart from the recent addition to Wavelengths, all other new swimming facilities have been massively behind schedule.

Are people aware the new 'flagship' leisure centre at Loampit Vale has been further delayed by at least another year. The design submitted for planning approval last August is about to be withdrawn and a new plan consulted apon this week.

A pool that was originally proposed to open by 2005.

Similar to Forest Hill the pool at Downham was closed in 1997 because the council failed to maintain the roof properly. Residents were informed a replacement would be built by 2000.

At the 2002 election the current Mayor the Downham pool would be built by 2004. It took another 3 years merely to sign the contract and the new pool eventually opened in 2007.

So far the Mayor is yet to make up his mind, a planning application is yet to be made, there's also the matter of change of use for Willow Way.

Watching property programmes on TV it would seem a higher value is put on land with planning permission. Would a developer pay for land at Dartmouth Road that has no planning permission, that requires change of use and is complicated by the existing 'open space'.

For ideas about pools and leisure centres the exhibition for the new scheme for the Loampit Vale site is as follows....

At the very least you are forgetting about Provender, which was opposite the pool for 30 years before the pool closed. Provender has ceased trading. The newsagent is now a fried chicken shop - which I am not sure will be better for the health of local children.

What I have yet to hear is anybody who actually believes that Willow Way is a better site for the pool. Whilst we have a better site on the existing pool; for swimming, employment, town centre, planning guidance, we should at least work to see if a pool can be built on the existing site before 2015 - and I still think there are other, cost effective ways that a number of contributors, as well as the council, are refusing to consider - WHY?

Michael, I don't actually think WW is a better site for the pool, however taking the town centre regen question out of the question, intrinsically its not necessarily a worse one. It also enables a newbuild from scratch so there is potential for something exciting here. Personally I would first like to see some comparables of what facilities we would get for our money in each case in order to make that decision, and I understand that information will be provided in the forthcoming council consultation.

Pools can work well in 'side streets and light industrial locations, ie The Bridge. They may not be pretty but they do the job.

To preserve the nature of FH as a viable town centre, retaining some sort of major facility on this site , such as a pool, would be a good bet for helping reduce the decline. However this does not preclude having something else in its place which will do as good a job, particularly if it leads to the restoration of Louise House, (which as we know will become a leading arts centre very shortly, and then where will we park the visitors coaches...). There should still be a relevant cultural cluster here to keep the momentum going.

If the issue is to support the shops and businesses at the periphery of the town centre, ie that end of Dartmouth Road, then that is a different matter and there are many economic questions in this one such as , again, whether they are in decline not because of the pool/lack of pool but because there are too many chasing the same market. Personally I recall the same problems there when the pool was alive and kicking , during the last recession for instance.

In an ideal world we would have a pool on the current site but whilst I share the outrage to a degree, I don't share the optimism that we will get it, but think instead we need to start thinking about securing the best alternative whilst we have the opportunity as it may not be here tomorrow.
Over the last 20 or so years I have supported many campaigns about the pool retention, also expressed anger and outrage about the state of it, signed numerous petitions, but now think we are closer than ever to getting something albeit not on the same site. Lets not lose sight of that.

Swimming is one of the best exercises for all of us,regardless of age or ability. Once in the water, those with physical disabilities are not as disadvantaged as on dry land. Talk of how fast some people can walk to Willow Way is purely academic for those who cannot walk very well - look around there a quite a few within our community. The existing pools on Dartmouth Road are well served by buses; another good reason for keeping swimming at its current site. We should look to the Health budget fora substantial contribution towards the costs of building and maintaining the new pools and for providing hydrotherapy here.

The pools was definitely an asset to FH centre. I live the other side of the tracks and would not schlep to Willow Way, instead going to the Bridge centre.

What a farce.

I just signed the petition because of what Scipio wrote. That's really what's important. A pool is for the people to use and it should be where the people is so that more people use it. That's the argument that Lewisham Council used to support relocating Ladywell Pool to Loampit Vale that's in front of Lewisham Station and it's a good argument. They should be consistent with it now.

Ok, one final post to respond to the bus service misconceptions of scipio and Max.

The existing pools site is served by 3 buses: 122, 176 and 197. WW would be served by 4 buses running through Forest Hill: 122, 176, 197 and 356.

...and it's the council's bully-boy tactic that I hate, forcing us to accept something that 2 years ago would not have been tolerated, let alone discussed, with the threat of nothing at all - or jam possibly tomorrow using Roz's allegory.

Gaz, the point made was about pools in walking distance from the Town Centre, not how may buses go there, otherwise we'd have 5 pools at Catford Bus Garage in Lewisham.
A local facility is one within easy reach and a short walk from where most people are/pass by. There are detailed studies made by Sports England telling exactly how many people use a facility depending on its location and the result is that the further away from a town centre it lies the fewer people use it.

An idea that I don't think has been proposed yet. Couldn't the centre be built in stages? Just the pools and changing rooms area now leaving the rest for later when finances allow? That should stay within budget.
After all Wavelengths was also developed in stages.