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What's happening at Waldram Crescent??
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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 511
Joined: May 2012
Post: #1
02-05-2012 09:44 AM

TfL are going to be doing roadworks on Waldram Crescent (the small strip of the South Circular between the Co-op and the railway bridge) for about 5 weeks.

This is what it says on the roadworks registry website - but I'm none the wiser, really! Any ideas?

"Footway and pedestrian crossing works, Fw TM Plus Width Restriction. 3.25 Running Lane, NORTHBOUND & SOUTHBOUND."

By the way, it looks like the dates of the roadworks as listed on the website are different from (and not as long as) the dates on the roadsigns. So - no idea how long it'll go on for!

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FHSoc


Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #2
02-05-2012 06:14 PM

When we met with TfL in October 2010, they were planning on making Waldram Place easier to cross for pedestrians by putting an island in the middle of the entrance.

We suggested that they modified the road layout of the A205 at the same time so that here was a proper right turn lane off Waldram Crescent onto Waldram Place.

This is probably what they are finally implementing (they work very slowly)

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FHSoc


Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #3
07-05-2012 06:14 PM

According to a letter delivered to local residents by TfL:

TfL London Streets Wrote:
Re: upcoming works to carry out improvement works for pedestrians and cyclists at A205 Waldram Crescent with Waldram place, Perry Vale, Stanstead Road and Westbourne Drive junctions.

This work will be completed in two phases, commencing on Tuesday, 8 May and scheduled for completion on Saturday, 30 June.

Phase One Starting on Tuesday 8 May through Friday 22 May, 9am-4pm, Mon-Sat.
To renew footway surfaces around the junctions and to convert existing segregated cycle lanes on the footways to a shared surface and reduce street clutter

Phase Two Starting on Monday 25 May through to Saturday 30 June, 21:30-05:30
To install the new redesigned yellow box junction and modify the right turn pocket at Waldram Place to help improve traffic flow
...
At times, the junctions of Perry Vale and Waldram Place will have to be closed in order to facilitate the works. Pedestrian and vehicle diversions will be clearly indicated.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #4
10-05-2012 01:01 PM

Nothing much happening yet. A delivery of paving slabs, that's about it.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #5
02-07-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:
When we met with TfL in October 2010, they were planning on making Waldram Place easier to cross for pedestrians by putting an island in the middle of the entrance.


Can someone mention this pedestrian island to the pedestrian island workers before they pack everything away without actually installing anything?

It is a wide road and cars turn off the South Circ fast and frequently. Pedestrians are forced to beg to be allowed the cross by their lords and masters in their mortised carriages whilst totally exposed to the traffic.

Before the usual suspects suggest pedestrians should not be crossing here, but perhaps should be walking up Perry Vale to the underpass, they need to remember that the underpass may well be closed later this year to install the lift and ramps (or apply thin lick of whitewash, I forget which), so it is not currently a viable alternative for those with a pram or wheel chair.

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InTheForest


Posts: 46
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #6
08-07-2012 02:56 PM

Quote:
When we met with TfL in October 2010, they were planning on making Waldram Place easier to cross for pedestrians by putting an island in the middle of the entrance.

I wish! It's a hopeless junction. Walking up Perry Vale, you either have to cross Waldram Place by what was Dawes for Doors or Perry Vale to get to the station, and both can be very awkward.

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FHSoc


Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #7
31-07-2012 01:17 PM

It has taken a long time to get an answer, but this is why TfL changed their mind:

TfL London Streets Wrote:
Please be advised that it was our original intention to provide a pedestrian refuge in Waldram Place to assist pedestrians crossing. However, further investigations revealed that due to their wide turning circles, large vehicles would not be able to turn into and out of Waldram Place if a pedestrian island were provided. Waldram Place is part of a diversionary route that is used by those vehicles which are unable to pass under the low railway bridge on the A205 Waldram Crescent. It is therefore [potentially] used by many high vehicles.

To address this issue, consideration was given to banning vehicles over a certain size from turning into and out of Waldram Crescent, and instead using Perry Vale (B227). Signs could be erected at - and in advance of - Perry Vale to re-direct drivers of high or large vehicles there. This would be the last opportunity they would have to turn off the A205 to avoid the low bridge just west of Waldram Place. However, from Perry Vale this bridge is not visible, and it is therefore likely that any instructions on these signs would not be followed. If drivers miss Perry Vale and are no longer able to use Waldram Crescent it would cause delays and difficulties on the network.


I had rather expected that it had something to do with vehicle tracking, but had not suspected that it would be from the Catford direction.

We did suggest in 2010 that they move the pedestrian crossing further up Waldram Place to beyond the entrance for the MOT station, but this was rejected out of hand.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #8
31-07-2012 04:33 PM

Thanks FHSoc.

So for the sake of an occasional tall and long truck that is misdirected through Forest Hill, and with a driver who ignores road instructions,
we have no crossing at this point.

Frankly such a dangerous vehicle should not be re-directed down a residential road anyway, and that it might, makes the case for proper crossings even stronger.

So these lost monster trucks coming from the other side of the bridge are re-directed down Devonshire Rd?
I don't think so.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #9
31-07-2012 08:31 PM

To be fair, I don't think the buses that already come down Perry Vale and turn into Waldram Crescent would be able to do so with a pedestrian reservation.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #10
01-08-2012 01:00 PM

Buses (from catford) are not turning left at this point, so that is hardly a valid reason to not to create the island.

There is plenty of pavement to play with here, so the road can be easily widened to accommodate an island should it present any sort of problem to the buses turning right into the turning.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #11
01-08-2012 01:45 PM

I wasn't thinking about Catford buses, but the 352 (?) that turns left into Waldram Cresent from Perry Vale. And all the Clarks coaches. But I do agree, the pavement could be taken back. It's a hard turn to make even for cars if there is traffic waiting to come out of Waldram Crescent. So shaving something off that corner was help drivers as well as allowing an island to be put in.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #12
01-08-2012 05:55 PM

rshdunlop, I think you mean the PV end of Waldram Crescent, which I agree is also a tricky road to cross.

I believe both FHSoc and TFL mean the other end by the South Circ, which was where the road workers were setting up their equipment before taking it all away again (promising much but delivering nothing).

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #13
01-08-2012 06:00 PM

Oooh, okay then.

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jgdoherty


Posts: 297
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #14
01-08-2012 06:41 PM

I think rshdunlop's point about the bus (356) turning left from PV is valid - the problem it and the Clarke's coaches face do need some attention.

TfL's point on, "This would be the last opportunity they would have to turn off the A205 to avoid the low bridge just west of Waldram Place. However, from Perry Vale this bridge is not visible, and it is therefore likely that any instructions on these signs would not be followed. If drivers miss Perry Vale and are no longer able to use Waldram Crescent it would cause delays and difficulties on the network." is fairly specious.

There are two significant opportunities before a truck reaches WC -Perry Vale as mentioned but also Westbourne Drive. Number recognition systems work perfectly well in all circumstances including directive signs for low height warning systems and therefore "flash" signs can say "Driver of vehicle registration AA61 BBB must turn left now."

Additionally frequency of such occurrences is waning as commercial vehicles have SatNav systems with low bridges and clearances specifically marked and thereby route planning tends to avoid such problem circumstances.

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NewForester


Posts: 377
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #15
01-08-2012 11:25 PM

ANPR probably wouldn't work on the many foreign vehicles which use the A205, and they may not understand that the flashing sign refers to them (with their sometimes limited English), so TfL is right that some drivers may not notice the warnings until they see the bridge.

However, once the truck has turned onto Waldram Place, it'll have a hell of a problem getting onto Perry Vale, so it would probably cause delays and difficulties on the network anyway, which makes their argument void.

Perryman - Overheight vehicles approaching from the west are indeed directed down Devonshire Road

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #16
02-08-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:
Additionally frequency of such occurrences is waning as commercial vehicles have SatNav systems with low bridges and clearances specifically marked and thereby route planning tends to avoid such problem circumstances.


Absolutely. It should be very rare occurrence and due to multiple errors on the drivers part. TFL's claim that this road is potentially used by many high vehicles is potentially nonsense. And remember of those few, it is only the long/wide vehicles that might have trouble negotiating an island.

That pedestrians have trouble crossing Waldram Place many times a day - at both ends - is a fact.

As for sending a similar lorry down Devonshire Rd, a road that white vans often have trouble negotiating - they would have no chance!

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