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Forest Hill Station Subway
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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #21
02-05-2012 08:35 PM

...and with belated apologies to rshdunlop - not entirely sure that features described in earlier post are deliverable under this scheme.

But engraved cladding .........

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Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #22
02-05-2012 09:40 PM

Stop. You're just teasing me now.

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Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #23
03-05-2012 06:29 PM

As far as we are aware, the final scope of the project has not yet been agreed due to budgetary constraints. As of March, the proposal was

Lewisham wrote:
Our budget is 126,000 for the works with the funding from LoROL and developer contributions. I have written to Network Rail today to seek contribution to elements of the upgrade I feel should be funded by them, such as drainage issues, safer steps and handrails and guess this will be a balance of maintenance and betterment where Network Rail do not have betterment funding for this structure but I have been advised by yourselves they had looked to improve the drainage.

So the bottom line figure on the costs is almost 160k which includes contractor costs, our internal costs, Network Rail licence/approval costs (Estimated) and contingencies. In broad terms this is broken down as follows. A warning on these figures is we have not yet negotiated on these prices.;

Preliminaries 17,800 (includes design, approvals with network rail and site set up)
Staircases 28,200 (including repairs to steps on both sides, new anti slip nosing and handrail wall and centre)
Footway 7,400 (including overlay surface and new drain)
Brick Walls 4,400 (clean off and paint existing mural)
Cladding Walls 34,000 (cladding walls and guttering replacement)
Cladding ceiling 39,000 (cladding without fixing to structure)
Contingency 13,000 (for unforeseen drain and fixing issues - needs to be budgeted but hopefully not spent)

Supervision 10,000 (Lewisham 8% of budget)
Network Rail 5,000 (Licences, approvals and site supervision)


With this information we will be discussing value engineering options with the contractor and also, as mentioned, funding from Network Rail for undertaking what I see as maintenance element of work. Once we know the outcome of this we will know where we stand with the overall budget, but at present we are requiring saving/funding of 32,200 - which we will look at contingency, preliminaries and goodwill form Network Rail

You will note there is no element for lighting or CCTV. From our discussions I feel the current CCTV arrangement is sufficient and not beneficial to spend money on a system that is already in place. For the lighting the works are covered by the PFI lighting contract and scheduled to take place in August, 2012. Therefore I would recommend we work towards the works being undertaken around this August window so we do not incur costs for rescheduling the lighting works.

We will continue to progress the approvals working with Network Rail but with a recommended August site date do not see the approvals and licences causing any programme issues.

Attached are details of the cladding (as received in June 2011 - things may have changed). We were told that they are planning to use the same system and colour as for the Lewisham subway. The lighting is fixed on both sides on the 45 degree splayed panels.

Attached File(s)
.pdf File  UnderpassCladding.pdf (Size: 235.98 KB / Downloads: 491)
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Posts: 95
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #24
04-05-2012 02:49 PM

Last night after 6 as I was making my way through the tunnel towards Dartmouth Road I looked up at the steps and coming down was a man on a bike who managed to cycle down both sets of steps and continued through the tunnel. You cyclists will be happy to know that he was protecting himself by wearing a helmet and a high vis jacket.

I then turned up Dartmouth road to see an Army cadet on roller skates coming down the street carrying his bovver boots cutting through traffic who didn't manage to stop at red while narrowly missing a woman crossing the road.

Apart from that it was a very unremarkable evening.

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Posts: 235
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #25
04-05-2012 06:16 PM

could someone explain why it is necessary to clad the ceiling?
Seems like a strange way to spend 39k, and I am sure would just be a maintenance liability for the future.

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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #26
04-05-2012 10:57 PM

It might be assumed that the writer referred to in FHSoc's post is an LBL representative.

On the major items it may be the case that the list does not refer to problems with track bed drainage and that contingency sums might be to narrowly focussed on what might be misunderstood to be surface water issues within the subway.

It may also be the case that at the time of major track works over the last few years, that all track bed problems which would include ingress of water to the subway from the track, have been resolved. Nonetheless LBL should seek assurance from NR that this problem has been fixed and thereby that the project is not at risk from circumstances outside its scope and control and potentially find themselves in a position that water ingress is still an issue after completion of the works.

The attached cladding drawings are informative in that they clearly depict an early design stage and are not construction drawings especially when the designer has marked the drawing with a note that the client is to specify the height of the cladding - this might be a pointer that not all of the design risk has yet been fully addressed.

Ceiling cladding can be a major benefit in that it can be designed to channel moderate quantities of water to the sides of the subway for collection and draining away. The downside is that NR can be very specific in requiring a material and installation standard that is higher than the construction norm for non-railway work. This of course can be appropriate when you have high speed non-stopping trains thunder over the subway that can cause significant degrees of vibration and deflection thereby requiring correspondingly robust fixing systems. Equally NR's approval process for design and/or type-approval can be onerous in both time and money.

NR's definition of betterment also needs to be carefully addressed. The concept of betterment in NR terms often attempts to obviate the fact that assets need to be renewed from time to time and thereby despite evidence that may prove that an asset needs to be renewed, NR may argue that funding cannot be made available as the required renewal would be deemed to be "betterment". NR and TOC's frequently refer to the asset being in a condition called "steady state" that often ignores the industry's standards for definition of what a modern stations facilities should be.

This problem is a microcosm that is embedded in Thatchers privatisation of the railway which became a lawyer's paradise of legal speak and redefinition of common sense.

This scheme needs a robust approach to these issues if it is not to be further mired in delay and under-estimated costs.

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Posts: 8
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #27
05-05-2012 05:02 PM

Almost every visitor of ours who arrives by train to FH for the first time comments on what a dodgy area SE23 seems because that tunnel is so sinister. That and the awful alleyway between Sunderland Rd and Shipman Rd which for years has been a dumping ground for anything thieves don't want from their haul. Sleep on, pampered, taxpayer-funded councillors.

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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #28
06-05-2012 08:22 PM

..and for those of us who favour engraved or etched cladding.

We may have to get our collective "Etch-a-Sketch" sets out.

It could add freshness to that old line "would you like to come over and see my etchings".

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Posts: 3,244
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #29
13-06-2012 07:47 AM

Lewisham has found some additional money to include work on the staircase so it should be that from September all the works required will be started and we will have a vastly improved subway.

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Posts: 63
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #30
13-06-2012 09:13 AM

Great news. Any idea how long the work is likely to take Michael?

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Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #31
13-06-2012 10:03 AM

I don't have a definite idea how long the work will take, previous plans have talked about the subway being closed for 3-6 months, which does seem like a long time for a relatively small job, but this would include some contingency for bad weather, especially if the work starts in September.

One word of warning, we have been given provisional dates for the works to take place previously, but this does seem like likely to go ahead after the Olympics than at any time in the last six years.

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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #32
24-06-2012 11:15 AM

I picked up a printed copy of Forest Hill's Society's latest newsletter (Summer 2012) at All Inn One last night.

In an item titled "Underpass Impasse" possibly written by Richard Hibbert, a scope of approved works was described that now includes installation of drainage channels to pathway and track bed. This inclusion of track bed work was not included in the previously described scope.

Has this item been formally approved by Network Rail and funded by them ? Given the tone of the item and Network Rail's silence this seems highly improbable - can clarification be provided please.

Furthermore the item states clearly the 126k that LB Lewisham has to hand is not sufficient to fund works to the steps at either end and that efforts continue to be made to secure additional monies from Network Rail.

Is it possibly the case that matters have changed between when michael posted here and when the newsletter was published ?

As far as Network Rail's tacit agreement that complaiance with DDA requirements has not been achieved here, I would doubt that they will have admitted this in writing.

More likely that they will be reporting to the Regulator that compliance will be achieved when refurbishment work is complete. Even though they currently have not proposed to fund this element of the work.

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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #33
24-06-2012 01:16 PM

Aha - just found an item published on the Society's website on the 12 June 2012 that says:

"Last week we heard from Lewisham Council that the total funds required for the refurbishment of the Forest Hill pedestrian subway have been safeguarded. This now includes improvements to the steps and handrails as well as wall and ceiling cladding, proper drainage, and lighting.
The extra 28,000 was made available by Lewisham Council as part of monies that were set aside for improvements to the East London Line Extension.
In total over 150,000 will be spent to on the subway starting in September, finally bringing the subway up to the standard that Forest Hill residents and visitors deserve."

If the web-site item is accurate that is good news - perhaps after all the printed edition is just a tad out-of-date.

Perhaps a short synopsis of the latest position with regard to finance, approvals (inc Temporary Closure Notices for the subway), design development position and project timetable could be published.

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Posts: 3,244
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #34
30-08-2012 10:34 AM

In a project where delays are the only certainty, I regret to report another delay to the work starting on improving the subway.

With the latest delay no work will begin until the end of October. But with the money, the designs, and the will I'm confident that this project will begin before the next Olympics are held in London.

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Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #35
30-08-2012 11:15 AM

lol I like your confidence Michael, thats really a brave statement to make.

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Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #36
10-09-2012 03:42 PM

Conway was finally awarded the contract at the end of August.

We are now awaiting a firm timetable, but are hopeful that the subway should be refurbished in the next four - six months (due to lead times for delivery of panels, lighting etc.)

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Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #37
12-09-2012 07:15 AM

The dates I was given yesterday were 19th October - 22nd December for the underpass works. Efforts will be made to keep the subway open through most of this time, but I'm sure there will be a need for it to be closed for some of the works, which may require the long trek round the South Circular for pedestrians.

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Post: #38
12-09-2012 08:30 AM

Or over the footbridge for railway users.

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Posts: 371
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #39
07-10-2012 03:43 PM

If a revised programme of works has been negotiated and an October 2012 to December 2012 delivery period for the works has been forecast, has LB Lewisham ensured that an appropriate Minor Closure Notice has been secured from the Rail Regulator by the operator.

If the underpass is deemed to be part of the operational railway and forms part of the station lease there is a statutory obligation to obtain such notice, even though the closure may only be temporary, in advance of the works commencing.

In the past successive Regulatory bodies have taken a dim view of failures to apply for such notices and have punished operators with the application of statutory penalties with cessation of works instructions being issued.

I believe it remains the case that this would be a statutory offence and not a softer "civil liability" issue.

Of course if the underpass is not part of the operational railway no such notice would be required.

Is there any web-site where an updated plan or scheme for the proposal can be viewed.

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Posts: 162
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #40
19-10-2012 10:50 AM

So...are the works starting today? Anybody know?

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