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Horniman Licence Application
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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #21
27-03-2012 07:09 PM

I don't agree. If the Horniman intend for events to have 10000 people then their licence needs to reflect that number, not 14999. Its a huge bandwidth to jump. This sounds all very haphazard and not indicative of good planning or forecasting or in fact control over numbers. I think events projected at 10000 need to be ticketed at least at the gate where numbers can be counted and a balance made with the local community. 10000 people sounds like a lot to me- roughly the size of the Jerk cookout in 2008 which I attended and was pretty packed. You still wouldn't have wanted that size of event every weekend. I would support up to 10000 but would still want to quiz the Horniman further on its plans which I think are still pretty ott.

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gingernuts


Posts: 505
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #22
27-03-2012 07:58 PM

I dont understand why a licence for 15,000 people is required if events are rarely going to go above 10,000. The over crowding at the jerk cookout over the period of years it was staged was bad enough, even before it reached the 20,000 number! The museum cannot cater for parking, so where are the 15,000 people (or even 10,000) going to park? And while I understand the Museum gets it's funding through such events, the idea of this number of people streaming out of the park at 11.30pm intoxicated in some cases, horrifies me. Before anyone justifies numbers by using the the carol concert as an example, this is a family event that doesnt encourage boozing and finishes at a reasonable hour ONCE A YEAR.

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alisa


Posts: 84
Joined: Mar 2008
Post: #23
27-03-2012 09:53 PM

Yesterday I called the Horniman and someone called me back a couple of hours later and was happy to talk through their plans.

My understanding is that they recognise their license is out of date/ out of kilter with what they do (now) and they want to get one overarching license to meet their needs.

1) Their current licensing is haphazard, so one of the things they are looking to do is streamline/ synchronise the hours - currently parts of their license run 12-4pm, parts 2-5.

2) They do want to extend their license, currently weekend only so that they can sell in the cafe and also at evening events.

3) For larger events they want cover so that for the 1-2 events they hold every year, they do not breach their license - and this is where the 15,000 comes in.

The bandings (every 5,000) is clearly the licensing authorities banding, not theirs. Nowhere in my conversation did I get the impression that there was any desire to hold huge events - but they do want a license that will hold and they don't want to be in breach by having 10,000 people (banding below is 9,999). The focus is on what they do now - family events - very occasionally in the 5-10,000 attendee range. In addition, for any event over 5,000 expected, they will clear in advance with advisory groups and agree a management plan.

A repeat of the 2009 Jerk Off (I may have got the name wrong there..) is not planned.

Number 3 is not their major concern, but clearly is part of their overall license application. They are working through the application with the authorities and getting advise from Lewisham.

On a personal level, I am strongly supportive of their application and urge anyone with concerns to talk to the Horniman.


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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #24
27-03-2012 10:27 PM

I just think their logic is a bit faulty especially the bit about accidentally going over 10000. They should not be accidentally going over 10000 but if they do by 10-20 people who would be counting? If they think someone would be counting then the Horniman could easily do their own counting by checking people in at the gate. The use of a clicker would tell them how many people are attending these events. They seem to be ignoring the fact that in order to confirm excessive attendance someone needs to be counting them in from the start.

The Horniman need to start to build up a bit more trust in the community that had previously dissipated over the last two years. This just isnt doing it for me. I certainly dont want to see alcohol for sale in the shop which they seem to think is acceptable nor necessarily in the cafe at least during the day. I would imagine that if they want to serve alcohol with meals then the price in general is likely to increase. I remain deeply concerned about their logic and statements they have made. If a licence for 14999 is obtained the Horniman is likely to want to use it. Why can't they apply for a reduced capacity and then seek a temporary licence extension two or three times a year for special events? That would achieve their aim and also go some way to balancing the various interests.

As to where people will park, the answer is your road and mine. The Horniman are still despite public protest advertising available parking on local roads.

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junegapi


Posts: 106
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #25
28-03-2012 08:28 AM

I have just read the reply of the Horniman management to the FH Society's request for information about the licencing application. I am dismayed that it is planning at least 3 events with a minimum attendance of 1,000 people. What effect will this have on local parking availability? Will it be similar to that experienced at the Jerk Chicken event of a couple of years ago - total grid-lock in the local area? This because the Horniman had not made any arrangements or notification to local residents, other than to welcome the participants. Why not open up The Triangle opposite the Museum Gardens to Event Parking and organise it properly with stewards, road signs, etc. Or pay Police to manage the local traffic - after all, football clubs are obliged to employ police and security people for their matches. Why should a large gathering in the Horniman Gardens be any different?

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blushingsnail


Posts: 368
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #26
28-03-2012 10:32 AM

Counting people entering the grounds won't be any use unless they count the number of people leaving and then work out how many people are still on the premises. With events running for several hours people are coming and going all the time. And there are 3 (or 4?) entrances to monitor.

Plus some people would be visiting the museum or another part of the gardens, not the event itself, so would be at risk of being prevented entry to the museum/gardens because the threshold number had been reached.

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Triangle


Posts: 133
Joined: May 2007
Post: #27
28-03-2012 11:20 AM

Since the Horniman is concerned that they might breach a licence for 10,000 people, they have decided to apply for a licence for up to 14,999 on site.

Quote from FHS:
"We are not planning events attracting over 10,000 in the course of the day, but we have applied for up to 14,999 on site ( licence bands go up in units of 5,000) to ensure that just a few people over this target do not put us in breach of our licence."

But then you have to wonder what is in place to prevent them from breaching the 14,999 limit by a few people as well? And if they do have a means and are confident of preventing it, then why canít that be applied to a 10,000 limit in the first place?

By allowing for a few people more and upping the limit to 14,999 the Horniman could actually increase its site capacity by 50% with all the potential parking problems etc.

I donít think anyone wants to deny the Horniman from raising income, it is a cherished part of Forest Hill, but what I think they should really be doing here is reassuring the local residents - by applying for a licence for 10,000 maximum and stating their intent not to breach the limit. Either you manage an event properly or it becomes a free for all.

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gingernuts


Posts: 505
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #28
28-03-2012 01:18 PM

Counldent agree more. It seems disingenuous to say they do not intent to go over the 10,000 limit, but if a few extra slip in, then we best have a licence for 15,000!!! If they are planning ticketed events, assume 10,000 can be controlled. If not, who is going to stop 20,000 from turning up?

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michael


Posts: 3,227
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #29
28-03-2012 02:07 PM

I don't know what plans Horniman have for crowd management but I think it is fairly clear to spot the difference in the park between 5, 10, 15, or 20,000 people. Even without tickets being issued it is relatively simple to estimate numbers with a 20% margin of error. It is also relatively simple to prevent greater numbers entering the site by closing the gates.

What is at least as important as exact numbers inside the park on their busiest days is the impact outside the park. Assuming people still want occasional events with 5-10,000 people in the park, what needs to be ensured is that people coming from outside Forest Hill are encouraged to come by public transport, that there is better sign-posting for local car parks, and that inside the park there are adequate toilet facilities for the numbers in attendance (as there usually are).

There have been many large events in Horniman Gardens over the years, which have been great for the local community and bringing some additional people to Forest Hill. There have been one or two that were too big and the Horniman do not wish to repeat events of this size. But I enjoy the occasional large event in the local park and so do thousands of others. Long may they continue!

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #30
28-03-2012 03:09 PM

The key is in the word 'occasional'. For occasional large events I see no reason why they can't apply for a temporary 'occasional' licence for each of the events. After all there are only three of them . Aren't there?

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michael


Posts: 3,227
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #31
28-03-2012 03:35 PM

I'm no expert in these matters but from Lewisham Council website it appears that temporary event notice is limited to 499 people. If so that would hardly be appropriate for the occasional events that we are talking about.

This post was last modified: 28-03-2012 03:36 PM by michael.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #32
29-03-2012 11:19 PM

I'm afraid I dont think an application for 14999 is appropriate for the kind of events we are talking about! The Horniman need to do some better planning and demonstrate same. Theres no evidence so far of control. There is also little logic in saying that people will spend money in Forest Hill as why would the venture out of the gardens if everythings there on tap.

I am pretty appalled at any suggestion of selling alcohol in the shop which is frequented by school kids. Are they really serious here?

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IWereAbsolutelyFuming


Posts: 531
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #33
30-03-2012 08:55 AM

Pretty sure kids are allowed in Sainsburys and they sell alcohol too...

I'd hope that any alcohol sales from the shop would relate to exhibitions in the museum (i.e. something from Bali when the recently closed exhibition was on). Cant quite see them having a fridge stacked with cans of Stella in there. And either way, I cant imagine school groups leaving armed with tinnies rather than the Horniman pencils and erasers the seem to buy now - kinda presuming they'll be bound by the same age-related alcohol sales laws as anyone else.

I agree that the museum needs to regain some of the public's confidence after they mishandled the mass Jerk Off. They certainly need to detail how they intend to manage larger events. But they need to be given the chance to do this. I look forward to the Horniman providing a handful of well managed larger events each year from now on.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #34
30-03-2012 10:08 AM

Herne Hill Tavern is a pub but full of kids. They do mix.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #35
30-03-2012 09:34 PM

Yes but despite its fusty appearance, dust covered mantelpiece and archaically slow service, the Herne doesnt claim to be a museum.

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reverendlionelblair


Posts: 47
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #36
03-04-2012 10:01 PM

Where do you want the Horniman to provide parking? There is no bloody parking in Forest Hill apart from the Sainsburys and local streets.

The thing to do is advertise the Horniman as having NO PARKING, WHICH IS WHAT THEY DID FOR THE JERK COOKOUT!

Roz, for the record I'm sorry you were disturbed by people knocking at your door during your pregnancy during the Jerk Cookout but to be honest, this is what happens and I'm sure with better management, these types of situations can be avoided. I would prefer better management of events than to oppose anything ever happening in the Horniman other than Carol Concerts that are attended by 100 local people from the area who pay 20p each, bring nothing to the local area and dont keep the museum in business.

1) Why is the Horniman not allowed to cash in on people drinking in the Horniman gardens rather than letting people go to the Sainsburys or Tesco down the road and bringing it all to the Horniman to drink? Also, it might mean they do up the cafe which would be a great result as, though it's a nice place to take the kids (which is why I use it), I cant imagine anyone else in their right mind going there for a quiet bite to eat during the day as it's always chaotic bedlam, but think of the possibilities if they got it licensed etc.

2) How many people use the bloody gardens on an average summer sunny weekend day? I would estimate it being more than 5000 so what the hell are we getting so upset about restricting them to 10000 over the course of a day given the size of the park?

3) Do you expect them to start charging entrance to the gardens? This is the only way to properly restrict entry and that's where it will go if you dont stop opposing them doing anything new.

This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 10:02 PM by reverendlionelblair.

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seeformiles


Posts: 269
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #37
03-04-2012 10:13 PM

Good point. I've long given up on the Horniman Cafe because of that.
I know they put on various evening events but no idea if they were also selling alcohol. Presumably they have some sort of restricted/temporary alcohol licence to cover weddings in the summer months.

However the lack of parking is a real problem and the number of people attending these events has to be carefully controlled. No matter how much people would like it to be so, I don't think the Horniman is the right sort of venue to stage huge events. That's just a fact.

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sandy


Posts: 190
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #38
03-04-2012 10:26 PM

People shouldn't be driving if they're drinking so if one aim is to encourage the buying of alcoholic drinks, there should be less need to provide parking...?

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #39
04-04-2012 06:35 AM

The Horniman is an ethnographic and natural history museum. The shop is a museum shop. So they now want to start selling cans of Fosters and no one thinks its a bit odd? If the Horniman want to start serving alcohol with meals in the cafe they can do that now but to the best of my knowledge drinking per se in open spaces isdiscouraged by the various pieces of legislation .
I take my children to a variety of places including family pubs and parks but I still dont expect or want them to come across loads of
p**sed adults in the Horniman Gardens as a matter of course. It's predominantly a family educational venue not the 02. 14999 people drinking in such a venue is a no no. Let them start smaller to regain the lost confidence of many in the community and see how that goes. Having a half baked plan for a larger number is not the way to start.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #40
04-04-2012 10:30 AM

I wonder if Kerang would be interested in putting on a concert on the grandstand. Mmmm, load of heavy metal fans, acres of space for their motorbikes and gallons of strong cider.

Superb.Thumbup

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