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Incident in Stanstead Road 19-02-2012
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Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #21
20-02-2012 03:20 PM

Not the same guy, last years chap was a 40ish year old man, this chap was 20. I could be wrong though.

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Posts: 7
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #22
20-02-2012 03:52 PM

The poor people who live on the road are having to sign out and sign in everytime they leave the house!
How does this aid the enquiry?!!

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Posts: 32
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #23
20-02-2012 04:46 PM

It's presumably being treated as a crime scene: hence for continuity purposes they need to know who's been in the scene and when - for things such as elimination of footprints etc if that becomes relevant, if anything is moved, added or taken away from the scene. In an ideal world you would preserve a scene precisely as it was at the time of the incident (adding nothing and taking nothing - including people) so that it can be forensicated, photographed etc.

The scene may remain open pending investigators having spoken to all paries involved and so on....because sometimes the significance of various things within a scene only become significant after the story starts to be pieced together.

Hence crime scenes can be open for very long periods of inconvenient as that may be....or would some people rather these things aren't investigated properly?

This post was last modified: 20-02-2012 04:48 PM by bensonby.

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Posts: 96
Joined: May 2009
Post: #24
20-02-2012 05:13 PM

In light of last years Mark Duggen incident and following riots, they can take as long as they like to dot their I's and cross their T's.

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Posts: 122
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Post: #25
20-02-2012 05:14 PM

Traffic flowing as normal now and bus routes restored.

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Post: #26
20-02-2012 09:14 PM

Since when has 'forensicated' been a real word........

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Joined: Aug 2008
Post: #27
20-02-2012 09:40 PM

"forensicated" sounds distinctly American to me Mellow

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Posts: 32
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #28
21-02-2012 10:14 AM

Did you understand what it meant?

If "yes" - then, bingo! - That's language for you.

If no, never mind, use your imagination.

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Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #29
21-02-2012 09:41 PM

Statement from IPCC:

This post was last modified: 21-02-2012 09:43 PM by michael.

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Post: #30
22-02-2012 09:31 AM

So it's an Americanism?

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Posts: 41
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Post: #31
22-02-2012 11:22 AM

Why were the police armed? I thought British police did not carry guns as a matter of course. And do all police officers now carry tasers? Agree that threatening people with a knife is wrong, dangerous, and requires police to act. But aren't they trained to deal with such incidents without resorting to tasers and guns? One must have faith in the investigation, but I hope it looks into how such situations arise, not just what went wrong.

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Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #32
22-02-2012 11:33 AM

Carole, the police that were first on scene were your typical police who are armed with an ASP (an extendable metal batton) and most likely PARVA (i.e. pepper spray or another variety).

Seeing the gentleman armed with a large bladed weapon (police speak for a very large knife, sword or machete) they sensibly called for armed backup.

Armed backup usually have a 9mm sidearm, a variety of long weapons i.e. a rifle as well as non leathal options i.e. Tazer.

As the report has said that police tazered the armed man to no or little effect and as he presented a clear and present danger to them they shot him.

Now we can only speculate on why he was carrying a large bladed weapon (amongst others found at the scene) and why the tazer had little effect (two option are mental issues or drug useage i.e. PCP is one option).

What I do know is that the police have a duty of care to the public to contain someone in a disturbed mental state with a weapon and cannot let them run around the suburbs of Forest Hill given the danger he presents to the wider public.

There are very few ways out of this and as the tazer seems to have no effect, the man is a danger not only to the public but also to the police they seem to have been left with little option but the one they took.

It is unfortunate to say the least that he was shot, the effect on him, his family and the police who pulled the trigger will be marked.

In truth, if he wasnt carrying a weapon, he wasnt breaking into a car and he wasnt a threat we wouldnt be discussing this.

This post was last modified: 22-02-2012 11:34 AM by Londondrz.

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Post: #33
22-02-2012 12:17 PM

Fair enough. I'm reassured by hearing that the regular patrol officers were mnot carrying guns. Thank you.

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Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #34
22-02-2012 01:15 PM

carole Wrote:
But aren't they trained to deal with such incidents without resorting to tasers and guns?

I take it you have never faced someone who is intent on doing you harm then?

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gerry m

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Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #35
22-02-2012 01:43 PM

Hopefully the events will cut car crime in the area and at the same time reduce knife purchases

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Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #36
22-02-2012 01:53 PM

One of my managers was an ex MOD policeman. He showed me how to disarm a man carrying a machete. Trust me. You cannot do it without injuring that person.

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Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #37
22-02-2012 02:02 PM

Community meeting with Police and IPCC

Time: Saturday 25th February, 2012 from 1pm to 2pm
Location: Kilmorie Primary School, Kilmorie Road, London SE23 2SP

Following on from the meeting held at St George's Christ Church on Monday in relation to Sunday's (19.02.12) incident where a 25 year old man was shot by police in Elsinore Road another community meeting will be taking place this Saturday 25 February.

The purpose of the meeting is for local residents to discuss the incident with the police and to hear directly from them about their concerns.

Senior Officers from Lewisham will be present to take questions.
The IPCC have also been invited.

Residents will have the opportunity to ask questions about how the case is being handled.

It will be held at Kilmorie Primary School, Kilmorie Road, London, Lewisham SE23 2SP and will start at 1pm

Details from Love Perry Vale

This post was last modified: 22-02-2012 02:03 PM by michael.

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Posts: 129
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #38
23-02-2012 07:36 PM

Excellent post from Transpontine:

Police shooting in Forest Hill
On Sunday morning (19 February), a 25 year old man of Ghanaian origin was shot and critically injured by police in Stanstead Road, SE23.

With the last police shooting in London - the killing of Michael Duggan in Tottenham - sparking widespread rioting, the police have gone into public relations overdrive. The police held a public meeting about the incident on Monday night (see report at The Multicultural Politic) and Lewisham Community Police Consultative Group is holding another one on Saturday (25.02.12) at Kilmorie Primary School, Kilmorie Road, London, SE23 2SP, starting at 1pm. Naturally the police will want to put across their version of events, but it is important to be clear that the facts of what happened have not yet been independently established. In many previous cases the first version of events reported in the press has turned out to be incomplete and misleading.

Previous Cases

Let's recall the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, the young Brazilian man shot dead by police at Stockwell Station in July 2005. In the aftermath of this, police officers made a number of statements on or off the record which were subsequently found to be untrue. They also allowed press stories which they knew to be untrue to go unchallenged. Many people would have gained the false impression from this that Jean Charles was acting suspiciously: that he was wearing bulky clothing on a summer's day (in fact he was wearing a denim jacket), that he jumped the ticket barrier (the CCTV showed he used an oyster card) and that he ignored police warnings (the jury at the inquest concluded that no warning was given).

Likewise in the Mark Duggan case, it was suggested that he had fired at police. It was later disclosed that this was incorrect and that a bullet that lodged in a policeman's radio had in fact been fired by another officer.

What happened in Forest Hill?

Many people have already made up their mind about what happened in Forest Hill on Sunday. To quote a commenter at Brockley Central. 'The man was running round with a machete. Tasers didn't work. What's to discuss?'. This may or may not be correct. This is what the police statement said:

'At around 05:40 hrs on Sunday 19 February, police were called to reports by members of the public of a man attempting to break in to a car in Elsinore Road, SE23. Local officers attended and attempted to approach the man who then threatened them with a large bladed weapon. The officers retreated and called for further units to assist including firearms officers.The man then approached officers on Stanstead Road threatening them with the weapon.

Firearms officers attended the scene, and both taser and firearms were deployed. Subsequently the male received gunshot wounds having been shot by police...The circumstances will now be subject of an investigation. There are no further details at present but we can confirm a number of knives have been recovered from the scene'.

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Posts: 129
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #39
23-02-2012 07:37 PM


The Independent Police Complaints Commission statement says:

'An independent investigation was immediately launched by the IPCC after Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) officers’ tasered and shot a 25-year-old local man.The incident started in Elsinore Road shortly after 5.40am when officers responded to an emergency call. Additional officers, including firearms teams, arrived at the scene and the man was tasered. Firearms officers discharged five bullets three of which hit the man. He sustained abdomen, leg and hand injuries and remains in King’s College Hospital receiving treatment. A young man remains in hospital but with help from eyewitnesses we can piece together bit-by-bit as much information as possible to form a clear sequence of events. I would urge anyone who can provide information to contact the IPCC by email at or on freephone 0800 096 9077.'

What about witnesses? The Standard reported (20 February 2012) 'Witnesses on a residential street have described the chaotic scenes after a ‘madman with a sword’ was shot by police'. The source? 'Dad-of-one Jason Dempsey, 30, said: “I was told the guy had a sword' - so not actually a direct witness at all.

'Council worker Laura Wilkinson, of Stanstead Road, said: “I heard the gunshots and there were quite a lot of them. There were three in quick succession followed by three more. I got up and looked out the window. The police were screaming and shouting. They were shouting ‘get down, stay where you are’...I was relieved to see lots of police out there because obviously waking up to gunshots wasn’t a pleasant experience. It was mad.” The 26-year-old added: “It does seem like a lot for someone with a knife.”'

So far I have only seen reports of what people heard, or heard from others, whether any other direct eye witnesses have come forward is unclear.


People running round the streets waving blades need to be restrained, but that doesn't mean they should be routinely shot. There are a number of key questions in this particular case.

- what exactly was the nature of the threat to police? - was it a sword, a machete or a knife? How close did it come to injuring anybody?

- what was the exact sequence of events? - did police use the taser, and when this failed, open fire? Or were they used more or less simultaneously? Why did the taser fail? How many officers fired shots? Did they all take the same action, or did one literally jump the gun? Did they follow their own rules and procedures?

- assuming it was a matter of a 'madman with a sword', a whole lot of other questions come into play not just for the police but for other health and social care agencies. Because the actions of such a person would suggest not a career criminal but a vulnerable adult, for instance with mental health and/or drug & alcohol problems. If that were the case, questions might include whether the person was known to other agencies and whether they had received the support they needed.

In events like these it is right that the facts should be independently investigated, rather than the police investigating themselves. Whether the IPCC is up to this job is another matter - their investigation into the death of Smiley Culture in a police raid last year was criticised by his family, because among other things the IPCC was not even able to formally interview all of the officers involved.

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Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #40
23-02-2012 07:53 PM

Certainly this habit of police shooting/killing people in situations where it most definitely isn't necessary to do so needs to be stamped out: trust in the police is very low on the streets, and as pointed out in Transpontine's post, whatever you may think about last summers riots it was the police killing and its handling of that which triggered those riots...just as it was in 81.

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