Lillam, not sure what your post is achieving. You are quoting from various sources as to what happened, some witnesses who were not actually witnesses, some from police in a prepared statement and then refering to past events in which the police were involved.

The fact is, we dont know the all of the facts.

I have commented on this topic from what I hope is a technical point becuase I am ex police although not ex UK police or infact "civilian" police.

What I do know is that trying to draw comparrisons to any other incident will not work as they are all unique.

What we need to do is let the IPCC (as it is they that investigate) get on with their job.

The fact still remains, if the person who is now in hospital had not attempted to break into a car and then threaten armed police with a bladed weapon we would not be having this discussion.

I'm unclear how the police are meant to be reassuring people and discussing the incident, when presumably the police are not at liberty to further reveal any information, until after the investigation.

Generally, in the run up to the olympics, I'd like to know if there have been any significant changes in how armed officers are asked to deal with incidents like this. But that is not information that will be revealed for years.

A hard clamp down will no doubt make many small time villains think again. But the more determined will think that if it is going to end up in a shoot out, they should come armed themselves in the first place, even for car-theft.

With the information we have, this looks to be a very worrying development, in my opinion.

What information that we have makes this a "worrying development"?

The law on force (for police or anyone else for that matter) is pretty clear cut and the law (and guidelines in interpreting that law) hasn't changed for years.

The bottom line is that if there is a serious and immediate threat to life then a very high level of force indeed may be justified.

It's funny how people express a great deal of concern for the chap who was shot but not for the police officers that he apparently tried to kill.

Like everyone else, I don't have the full facts - but nothing has come to light so far that suggests this is anything other than a justified use of force by the police.

We recently had a aggravated burglary by four offenders in a house a few doors away, who were chased across our back gardens in the dark by unarmed 'first response' officers. They successfully apprehended one of the burglars. Not sure what happened to the others. I hope with the helicopter etc they made further arrests.

I am glad that the we have a professional police force which is prepared to put its own officers on the line to protect the public. I'm not saying it is perfect - but there aren't many better police forces.

From what I saw, the car that he attempted to steal was left in Elsinore Road about half way between Vancouver Road & Stanstead Road. I understand that the police eventually shot him in Stanstead Road. This suggests to me that they allowed him a lot of latitude before they eventually shot him.

A bit of a report from Saturday's meeting. I'm not sure I can do justice to a two hour meeting and I'm not sure that all of the audience were fully reassured by the very limited facts that were made available. But here are some of the notes I made during the meeting:

- One of the officers explained in general terms, without specific reference to the incident, sometimes tazers don't work, for example 'through thick layers of clothing'. If I remember correctly, last Sunday morning it was very cold.
- Time between the arrive of local police and the arrival of armed response team appears to have been 13 minutes.
- Police will be arresting the man who was shot, once he is well enough. IPCC wish to interview him after that.
- Officers who discharged their weapons have provided written statements for the IPCC and are not on active duty (standard procedure after weapons discharge). They can be interviewed further by the IPCC later, possibly under caution if necessary.
- Police were pleased with the public response and the 'wealth of evidence' in this case.
- There has been an increased police presence in the area since the incident to reassure the public and to ensure witnesses came forward.
- The man who was shot lives very locally to the incident.
- No police officers or other members of the public were wounded.
- The police did not detail anything about what happened but there were two neighbours who witnessed part of the scene. Some of this evidence was possibly contradictory (did he have more than one knife), but the scene was described as 'chaotic' immediately after shots were fired, with 'no one in control'.

Man is now arrested

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17203950

As expected the police story does not appear to match up with what happened that day, namely it now looks that the police shot four times at a man with mental health problems, then gratuitously tazered him and kicked him while he lay on the floor bleeding to death. Amazingly he lived, and is recovering in a mental health institute. This from the Daily Mail, but better to read it here first http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/...olice.html ...includes Daily Mail link.


The catalogue of police racism over recent years is huge - deaths in custody - people 'falling from balconys' and 'stabbing themselves' - just look at the front page of yesterdays Guardian for the ongoing crisis - and if its not sorted out there will be more riots, just as there were in the 80s, just as there were in LA over Rodney King, and just as there were last summer. Im sick of it. If this same incident happened in a leafy village and George was white it would not have resulted in what has happened.

More lefty propaganda against the police who are supposedly there to protect us. Who on earth would want to join the police these days - you cant do anything right with the media and human rights lot peering over your shoulder the whole time saying 'you cant do this, you cant do that, or say that'.. yes racism is wrong and there is no place for it in the police..but I think sometimes things are blown out of all proportion and the police immediately become the bad guys People need to STOP bringing race into the equation when it probably has no factor!

This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 09:37 AM by poolsneighbour.

...I think these kind of issues need to be looked at on a case by case basis..and if foul play is suspected, then it should be dealt with appropriately..I just don't believe that all of the police bashing which has been in the media lately is entirely based in fact, and its going to end up causing even bigger problems by getting communities angry and 'anti-police' - which surely is the opposite to what they're trying to achieve. The media needs to take a step back and wait until things are actually investigated before jumping to conclusions= and causing outrage..

Liliam, if you believe everything you read in the Daily Mail then I worry for you.

The police cannot comment whilst the case is ongoing but the Daily Mail can so you are happy to jump on the DM bandwagon before all the facts are known. Yeee Haaa..... and off they go.

This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 10:26 AM by Londondrz.

Of course there is the odd rotten apple in the Police and they should be rooted out but I would say on average we have one of the best police services in the world

If you do not think so remember Athens , Teheran , Cairo Roma etc


Get rid of negative attitude and back and law enforcement persons

I'm sorry, I have to laugh very hard at a couple of posts on here, hilarious scaremongering and political rubbish.

Snazy, good to see you back. You hav'nt been around for a while.

Thanks I do pop back but avoid most things these days lol
Nice to have been missed though, thank you

"Forest Hill knife-wielding schizophrenic not guilty after being shot by police" http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/100238...by_police/

I'm sure some will dispute the accounts reported in the linked article but if they are accurate, what a horrible and frightening experience for all directly involved (police, the man shot, and witnesses).

While we shouldn't be afraid to question those in positions of authority we should also remember that many/most of them aren't too different from ourselves. Training or no training, imagine yourself as any one of those police officers. Members of the police have done things wrong in the past but that doesn't mean everything they do is wrong or sinister.

So, it certainly appears that the police were justified in shooting this man in self-defence and suffered a terrifying ordeal.

Can we now have full apologies and retractions from those above who posted their conspiracy-theory anti police nonsense please?

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I would suggest that the conduct of the officers is judged by the investigation by the IPCC, and not based on court case determining the guilt of the other party in this case. It is for the IPCC to rule as to whether the use of force by the police officers was justified.

However, I think that everybody watching the facts slowly being made public in this case will reflect that the situation was more complicated than some may have thought from the initial headlines.

I think we should stop giving the police such a hard time. I feel sorry for these guys and gals. No wonder morale in the Met is at record low's - they're constantly worried of being 'reported' to the IPCC