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Horniman Primary - disappointing league tables
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cinziasg


Posts: 13
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #1
27-01-2012 09:39 PM

Hello,

I have always been skeptical about relying on school results tables as a means to judge teaching quality and effectiveness.

However, I must admit, I was alarmed when I read this year's school league tables: my daughter's school, the Horniman Primary, performed worse than most schools around here.

Has anybody else noticed? What do you think?

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roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #2
27-01-2012 09:43 PM

Is this from the now infamous Sydenham Society league tables or some other data?

Personally I think its a great school. Almost everyone I know speaks well of it. I do think that these tables need to be taken with a pinch of salt whether they are good or bad.

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cinziasg


Posts: 13
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #3
27-01-2012 09:50 PM

No, they are the government results that were published yesterday on the BBC website.
I agree with you, but the results were pretty poor to be dismissed without a second thought.

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IWereAbsolutelyFuming


Posts: 531
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #4
27-01-2012 10:03 PM

There is a good commentary on those stats on the Dalmain thread. That certainly accounts for some of it with Horniman. The other thing to consider is that Horniman is a one form entry school so it is harder to 'hide' any naturally lower achievers in the rest of the numbers.

Certainly worth asking questions about via the teaching staff or the governors...you have at least one of them on hand on this very forum.

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cinziasg


Posts: 13
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #5
27-01-2012 10:29 PM

Thanks, I've read the Dalmain thread. There are so many factors to take into account when assessing a school performance and numbers alone are not sufficient. Sadly, just one very good or very bad teacher can make a huge difference.

Interesting what you said about the Horniman being a one-form-entry school: I was wondering myself if the size of the school might influence these results somehow.

Thanks again!

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Satchers


Posts: 262
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #6
30-01-2012 10:52 PM

Hi IWereAbsolutelyFuming

I think you may mean me, as previously posted somewhere on here I am a parent Governor at Horniman School, and can confirm that we have been looking very closely at these KS2 results.

I will need to dig out the paperwork but a good place to start would be the 'Governors Report to Parents' from September/October 2011 which went out to all parents last term. This included these results and an assessment of the reasons behind this 'dip'.

When I get a chance I will dig it out and post a summary.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions in the meantime.

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Les


Posts: 95
Joined: Jan 2004
Post: #7
31-01-2012 07:09 PM

Satchers - I know this forum shouldn't become the primary mode of communication between governors and parents, but it would be great if you could bring out the main points of the report here.

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seeformiles


Posts: 269
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #8
31-01-2012 09:25 PM

I feel very sorry for teachers.

How is this helpful - speculation and headlines about how bad a school might be doing, splashed across a forum.
If you have concerns, talk to the school, or other parents off site.

I really disagree with this approach. I'm sure the teachers do their best and there may be a multitude of factors involved in many of these results.

This is a school you're talking about, not a restaurant.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #9
31-01-2012 10:24 PM

Actually, seeformiles, I see this thread as very positive for the school. The league tables are easily available elsewhere online, and a bald reading of the statistics gives poor impression of the school. What is good here is people who know the school, or who understand how the results can be skewed, are posting to tell us all the good things the results don't show. Where better to get real, first hand information? There are, indeed, a multitude of reasons for these results, which is what most people here have been pointing out.

This post was last modified: 31-01-2012 10:25 PM by rshdunlop.

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seeformiles


Posts: 269
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #10
31-01-2012 10:31 PM

I know the results are published but that's in a different context to this.

What invariably follows these many threads about schools are non corroborated scare stories, of the 'my neighbour's friend's sister's daughter's dog had a terrible time there' variety. There is an important difference.

Personally I think teachers are under enough pressure already without all this.

This post was last modified: 31-01-2012 10:34 PM by seeformiles.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #11
31-01-2012 10:51 PM

Have you actually read the previous posts in this thread? Or the related thread on Dalmain? I don't recognise any of what you saying in either of these threads, nor do I remember it in any other recent school threads. If anything, people seem loath to say bad things about schools they have direct experience of, they mostly only post to be supportive. What I see is parents whose children are not yet at school saying thy have heard bad things, and people on the forum post to say such rumours are not necessarily true.

If there have been threads like you describe, I've missed them.

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Satchers


Posts: 262
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #12
01-02-2012 12:27 AM

rshdunlop - there have been previous threads on a number of local schools (albeit quite a while ago) that contained unsubstantiated "my neighbours dogs brother's friend hated it" etc etc. but thankfully that hasn't happened too recently.

I will dig out the report I referred to as soon as I get the chance. Sorry it can't be more instant!

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Satchers


Posts: 262
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #13
01-02-2012 12:41 AM

I realised that the report was on the school website and is downloadable here >>
http://www.hornimanprimary.com/governors.asp
see page 2 and page 8 of the report for more information on this issue

Basically what it says is that a number of the KS2 papers in the writing part of the English assessment were sent back for marking after the teacher assessments and moderation came back with a different score than the official one (that means the teacher assessments and Lewisham's moderation of them did not agree about some children's 'official' level in the writing tests that formed part of the English assessment).

The papers were not regraded, as they rarely are, and so the school is in a position that they are left with a set of results that they and others who have assessed those children don't agree with.

There is nothing the school can do about these assessments, except try and explain the situation, and having been through this in quite some detail as a Governor (as it is our responsibility to do) I can tell you that I am confident that this is not a problem with the school.

As you will see from the report the official KS1 results are excellent. However, unfortunately these are not reported on the various websites that list the school information.

I am happy to answer further questions on this and I know the Headteacher would be happy to talk to any parents or prospective parents about it too.

This post was last modified: 01-02-2012 12:42 AM by Satchers.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #14
01-02-2012 10:34 PM

My eldest daughter goes to Horniman and our younger one will hopefully be going in September. Eldest daughter loves it and we try to have as active part in school life as possible.

Eldest had issues with reading, the school sat down with us and drew up a progression plan and we now have a very happpy little girl who can read. Mrs W you are a star!!!

It is a happy school.

P.S. The PTA pub quiz is NOT to be missedLaugh

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Les


Posts: 95
Joined: Jan 2004
Post: #15
02-02-2012 02:41 PM

Thanks Satchers - I remember the report now. Just to reflect the comments above, Horniman's is a much loved school, and everything I have seen on this forum has been supportive.

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pebble


Posts: 47
Joined: May 2011
Post: #16
02-02-2012 04:21 PM

Hi Satcher,

What you describe about the problem with the KS2 sats English paper also happened at Fairlawn. Quite a few children missed out on a level 5 for English because of the way the external markers interpreted the question. It really messes up the results.

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cinziasg


Posts: 13
Joined: Aug 2011
Post: #17
02-02-2012 06:05 PM

I've read that report too, but I didn't understand what it meant exactly until now. Thanks for pointing that out.

When I started this trend I didn't mean to highlight any school faults or failure, not to put pressure on the teachers.

What I wanted to initiate was an exchange of views or information on this topic. No scaremongering: just plain facts.

Many thanks again.

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