All those shops on the parade need to seriously shape up.

Twas the wife's birthday yesterday and I figured I could get some decent pate from Hills & Parkes (it was shut at 6.10pm), and some fizz from the off license a couple of doors down from the HOP supermarket (it doesn't take cards so walked out)



Both items needed me to get into my car and drive to FH Sainsbury's

This post was last modified: 06-08-2013 12:45 PM by Southlonder.

A bit of forward planning needed here, I think. Monday is not a day when a delicatessen in a small parade like ours would normally find it worth while to stay open late, so best to have bought the pate on Saturday.
I'm surprised about the offy not taking cards - they need to rethink this. But then again, there's a cash machine right outside it (OK, a small charge attached but it would have saved the day).

Sorry HOPcat but I think this misses some points here. We plan our grocery shop quite carefully. As most of the regular bulky items are not available in the parade, we end up driving to FH Sainsburys and shopping within a single hour window of opportunity on a Saturday - not a pleasant experience. That is apart from meat and fish which I generally source locally (Peter James) but this is still not on the parade.

We still find ourselves wanting an impulse purchase and as we both work this is generally in the evening. On these occasions, it is probably Jay's Budgens that gets the business as their stock is excellent and we know they will be open. Once again, the parade misses out.

The Off Licence used to take cards but have not done so now for some time. It is quite a surcharge to have to draw cash out from their machine just for a few beers. This rankles with me somewhat and I am completely with Southlonder on this one.

The new Sainsburys will come with a cash machine, a free one presumably. I know that these factors will collectively drive a lot of our spending back onto the parade - which is surely good news.

As it turns out, the only local business I don't see benefiting from this is Budgens. This is a shame as I really like that shop and the friendly staff who run it.

Our views don't matter any more. The Government has today published plans to allow change of use from shops to residential without planning permission. This right won't be limited to empty shops but working businesses.

As a result, I expect shops and businesses in HOP parade to be turned into flats soon. In my view, this will a nice little earner for the landlords but will be detrimental to the community benefits brought by a local shopping area. And don't expect the shops and businesses to come back - shops are less profitable.

The proposals are found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...of_use.pdf

Yes, clearly it's hard for people as busy as you are to shop on the parade when you can't get there easily on a Saturday or during the day. Perhaps if you and others in your position started a thread on ths site and then approached Hills & Parkes, for example, and asked them for even one late opening a week, and promised to support them, they and other shops would gauge the level of potential business they are losing.
I love Budgens, too and their owner has been really supportive of businesses in our parade and Brockley Rise, advising them on shaping up and improving their lines. Some have listened, but others haven't got the message. The off-licence has competition from the Brockley Supermarket, Concards and Bubbles as it is, so to stop accepting cards makes no sense business-wise to me.

Yes, clearly it's hard for people as busy as you are to shop on the parade when you can't get there easily on a Saturday or during the day. Perhaps if you and others in your position started a thread on this site abaout shops' opening times and then approached Hills & Parkes, for example, and asked them for even one late opening a week, and promised to support them, they and other shops would gauge the level of potential business they are losing.
I love Budgens, too and their owner has been really supportive of businesses in our parade and Brockley Rise, advising them on shaping up and improving their lines. Some have listened, but others haven't got the message. The off-licence has competition from the Brockley Supermarket, Concards and Bubbles as it is, so to stop accepting cards makes no sense business-wise to me.

Codrington Brill.

I don't think you need to worry as I doubt there's much chance of Honor Oak Park losing any more shops to residential as it did in the eighties. This new government consultation already recognises the importance of viable and improving shopping areas like HOP - see below

21. There is a real opportunity to support both the high streets and housing agendas by allowing change of use to housing of shops that are no longer viable. There is no doubt that individuals value and recognise the importance of the city centre, high street and local shops...

The Council will only be able to resist the change of use if they can show harm to the vitality of the town centre or a loss of essential local services. This will be difficult to establish for most retail uses on HOP. Essential means things like post offices.

There are real grounds for concern here if you want HOP to remain a destination rather than another row of houses. Existing shops will also suffer a reduction in footfall as the number of shops and businesses close.

well that would be the same for rows of shops all across the country so I shall not lose sleep over that one

This post was last modified: 07-08-2013 06:11 PM by daveherne.

Though I think that Anotherjohn makes a good point I do also feel that times change and once the shops are gone they are gone forever. I think that times past, an awful decision was made to convert shops to residential - any way to prevent a repeat of that would be good.

I notice that there is a way to protect the shops in the consultation document - via a Conservation Area. I think that this would have other planning benefits too. I for one would be in favour of this - if you look at old photos of the parade (there is an excellent one in the chippy), it was very attractive indeed.

HOPcat, as I can't really predict when we will make an impulse purchase, am more inclined to wait and see whether the new Sainsburys brings the footfall I am expecting. This will be much clearer evidence of business opportunity to the other shops IMO.

Codrington Bill.

I disagree with your point about the importance of 'essential services' in all of this.

I believe the other points that you've mentioned (below) will suffice to protect HOP - especially as the Council are already clearly committed to making the parade work for local residents.

Existing shops will also suffer a reduction in footfall as the number of shops and businesses close.

The Council will only be able to resist the change of use if they can show harm to the vitality of the town centre. (which would occur as a result of the previous point)

By the way, I have seen so many changes in this area since 1971. I started work in the mid-seventies as a photographic assistant in one of the premises that's currently being converted by Sainsburys and I reckon their presence and power will do more to enhance and protect the future vitality and viability of the shopping parade than anything I can think of.

I really do feel for one or two of the other retailers though because they must be quite worried about their future livelihood. However, if they stay strong and focussed they should be able to retain a good percentage of the current spend from their existing customers and, hopefully, benefit from the new additional footfall that'll be created by Sainsburys and the other serious businesses that will inevitably follow them into HOP.

Anotherjohn, the voice of reason . I totally agree.

HOP isn't classed as a town centre so there will be no impact on it and none of the businesses are essential. Therefore no grounds to resist a change to residential.

The danger is that landlords, who don't seem to be that keen to ensure shops are occupied, will be tempted to change the premises to flats.

We shall see. Its only a consultation at the moment but George Osborne is pretty keen on deconstructing and discrediting planning system so it may be a shoe in.

Permitted development takes the power away from Council's to require a planning application. So it doesn't matter how committed they are. This is a central government policy trumping local.

Codrington Bill.

Yes, and this proposed Permitted Development will be dependent upon it meeting certain criteria, as it is with current PD for residential property.

lacb rightly stated that a Conservation Area would put the mockers on some unwanted changes and, as much of Forest Hill's shopping area is a CA, I would be surprised if mootings of similar plans aren't already afoot for HOP.

Regardless of all of that it seems that you're resigned to seeing 30 new ground floor flats on your daily journeys to and from the station (I'm guessing), but I've had experiences with Lewisham and with Planning generally which make me confident that it will not happen in the foreseeable future (at least 10 years).

Meanwhile, a Monty Python's ditty comes to mind... 'ALWAYS LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE OF LIFE, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da' (rpt)

OVER AND OUT!

that's alright then!

re Conservation Area

I am surprised at the areas that are not CAs too - I suppose not everywhere can be one... Yes, I think that HOP, the parade (and also some of the surrounding streets IMO), is an obvious choice too but I do not think that this means it is a shoe in. I understand that a campaign is required and representations made to the Council. Anyone who knows any better about this please do correct me on this or if you know of anyone who is campaigning for it already.

The other point is that there is an acknowledged shortage of housing in London / under supply of housing. So if there are unused shops there will be greater and greater pressure to convert them into flats. In other words if you want a parade with shops / restaurants etc then they need to be used, or they will be lost.

If a site like the Old Bank remains unused for 2 years, then the trend will be if it can't be used for a restaurant, why not convert to flats? I realise this then leads onto the question of rents, e.g. is the landlord holding out for big (or unrealistic!?) rents in the hope of converting to flats.

With regard to the off-licence, I agree that it is is one of the mostmiserable retail units ever.

My theory is that the owners of the off-licence do not approve of selling alcohol. This view is not one without merit - given the high cost of drunkeness to the wider economy, though this does seem rather limiting for an off-license (a bit like a barber disapproving of hair cuts).

Nevertheless, that seems to be the off-license's position, and not accepting cards is their way of supporting the cause of not selling alcohol.

Even without the forthcoming Sainsbury, there are other outlets to buy alcohol in HOP (at least if you extend to Brockley Rise), so there appears to be little need to go to the "offie".

Re: the three convenience shops on HOP

One of them stinks to high heaven and is unfriendly, the second hardly has anything on the shelves but is friendly (smells dusty), the other is really unfriendly but is well stocked (albeit with rotten courgettes, smells ok).

Needless to say, I'm looking forward to one of these new fangled, J S Sanesburys (if that's the right spelling). I'll be smelling it the day it opens and will report back to the forum.