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Pedestrian crossing by Forest Hill Station (Perry Vale side)
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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #41
02-11-2011 02:48 PM

There are two types of pedestrian in Forest Hill - the quick and the dead!

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Cellar Door


Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #42
02-11-2011 04:50 PM

seeformiles Wrote:
...that you're able to nimbly negotiate your way across the road.

But remember not everyone is in a position to be as adept or nimble...

For myself, I'm certainly neither adept nor nimble. With my hearing going, my eyesight fading and my right hip clicking louder with each step I'm even more cautious and slower than ever at crossing the road.

I know that you are looking out for others there, seeformiles, as I appreciated what you wrote in your first post:

"Imagine how people with small children or low vision/ impaired hearing must feel."

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Erekose


Posts: 551
Joined: May 2010
Post: #43
02-11-2011 10:20 PM

Intersting as I also cross opposite Finches, walk down to the lights and then cross back when going home via the Co-op. This must be the optimal route.
Visibility not so good when approaching the station in the morning it has to be said unless the traffic is very heavy in which case it is usually ok. A refuge halfway across would solve a lot of the problems. Its a shame that when the 'table' opposite the tunnel was rebuilt was given gentler approach ramps as this encourages motorists not to slow down. My experience of driving over it is that it is too gentle to be effective.
I don't want to seem to be obsessed with the speed of cars in the Perry vale area but I have also had problems at the Sunderland Road / South Circ. junction and an aquaintance was hit by a car at this junction a few years back (car turned off the south circ. at speed without indicating).

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #44
03-11-2011 12:00 PM

Quote:
I will try asking the Council highways guys for their borough-wide strategy for deciding where to put these (neon smillie speed recorders), and whether/how they monitor the effectiveness of each deployment.

I'll also suggest putting one, at least for a time, on Perry Vale outside the station entrance.


If these devices also record the amount of traffic then I think that could provide very useful information, that could then hopefully be acted on.

My experience is that in the mornings before 9.00, the traffic is often heavy enough to be a continuous stream and you can only get across PV if someone stops for you - and to be fair a significant number do. But traffic is only going to give way at a recognised crossing point.

Like these useless speed cushions, what is outside the station is neither one thing or the other. It sort of looks like a crossing to pedestrians, but not to traffic. That is not a good combination.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #45
03-11-2011 01:53 PM

Quote:
I'm sure many of us do consider our pedestrian roles in this.
Doesn't alter the fact that too many motorists drive too fast.


Just out of interest, what would you presume the average speed to be around the area of the underpass, and steps from Platform 2.
Not trying to start an arguement here, and I support the fact that the drivers do NOT pay enough attention on this piece of road. However I do think that trying to clamp down on speed legally will be almost pointless.

Due to the curve in the road, how narrow it is, and of course the challenge in crossing the road, the speed of the cars 'appears' excessive, but from experience I would say very few cars are actually exceeding the speed limit.

A refuge in the middle of the road is really a non starter I would think, Due to the width of the road, you are more likely to be struck on said refuge by a car misjudging it. YES the motorist would be in the wrong, but you would still be in hospital or a box.

I have attached an image of our favourite piece of road, taken this morning. Hopefully from this it is possible to see that a centre refuge would not be practical, especially for emergency vehicles and other large vehicles passing. However the length of the road and line of sight WOULD allow for a chicane to be installed. Which would a/ slow traffic, allowing right of way for traffic coming from the south circ to avoid congestion, and b/ create a narrower, slower, 'safer' point to cross the road at. Meanwhile allowing for an emergency vehicle bump free passage.

Even if one was made on a temp basis with water filled red and white barriers, this would test the theory.

A car parked near the cab office last night actually created an improptu chicane, anyone getting off the train about 6.45 might have seen this. The traffic although heavy was a lot calmer.

Who would need approaching about an experimental chicane?

One after thought, hopefully a chicane area would also stop the piece of road being used as a pick-up / drop-off point.



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Cellar Door


Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #46
03-11-2011 02:10 PM

Perryman Wrote:
It sort of looks like a crossing to pedestrians, but not to traffic.

Absolutely.

I believe Iíve got a superb example of a Raised Pedestrian Crossing with all the appropriate warning signs and bits and bobs.

On my cycle route to and from work I most often ride along Birdcage Walk.

This is a Google Streetview of one of the three Raised Pedestrian Crossings along there. People use them to get to and from the beautiful St. Jamesís Park. Even saw a couple of geese using it early one morning!

You can see the triangular warning sign. And the white triangles painted on the road.

Maybe having both of these could help traffic understand what it is?

As mentioned by Perryman this is not a good combination to have pedestrians trying to cross there at what appears to be an attempt to establish a Raised Pedestrian Crossing.

Compare ours to what is in Birdcage Walk in Westminster and it sorta looks like our people in making it have just downed tools halfway through for a break, gone for a cuppa and then forgot to come back to put the signs up and the other finishing bits.

Oh, as a wonderful reminder from our friends at The Highway Code here is the opening sentenceÖ

ďThe most vulnerable road users are pedestrians, particularly children, older or disabled people, cyclists, motorcyclists and horse riders. It is important that all road users are aware of the Code and are considerate towards each other.Ē

When Iím cycling along Birdcage Walk I observe that the vast majority of motorists slow right down or stop and allow pedestrians to cross. Of course, on occasion there are those that donít quite know what to do and gaily sail through leaving many pedestrians shuffling around on the pavement waiting to cross. And getting cross!

Triangular warning signs are designed to let road users know about hazards on the road ahead so you can look out for them and be prepared. Maybe that is what this little spot of bother is crying out for?

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #47
03-11-2011 09:20 PM

Bit of a weird experiment but I thought I would give it a go. I have just made 3 passes along that stretch, normal comfortable speed checking line of sight, slightly increased speed, in control but certainly didn't feel right to pass through there, and in the opposite direction.

Firstly no speed limits were broken, in fact it would have felt horrible to have gone any faster.
And secondly, is there were a single island chicane in place it would be perfectly managable by cars.

Done my bit now lol

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Erekose


Posts: 551
Joined: May 2010
Post: #48
05-11-2011 05:29 PM

I think Snazy is right in that the narrowing of the road they carried out as part of the 'improvement' works has made a central refuge impossible without major realignment of the pavements (unlikely given the current climate). I was very annoyed at the time as it was fairly obvious that what they have done would make it worse.
I find that the cars that stop to drop off / pick up people do serve the useful function of slowing other cars down.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #49
06-11-2011 12:16 AM

The people doing the dropping off and picking up do indeed slow the traffic and only support my call for a chinane there.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #50
07-11-2011 11:03 AM

Cars speeding along PV in the late evening has always been a problem, so I would not argue with the placement of chicanes along the road.

But I do not want drivers concentrating on manoeuvring their cars at a crossing point.

I do not understand why a pelican crossing is thought expensive - in the 60's the computer to control it may well have been the size and cost of a house but today would be cheaper and smaller than the bulbs.

They are just metal poles with lights.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #51
07-11-2011 08:49 PM

I think we are back to the fact that no-one has been injured or killed crossing the road. That always seems to be required before a crosssing is justified!

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NewForester


Posts: 377
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #52
08-11-2011 11:16 AM

Perryman Wrote:
in the 60's the computer to control it may well have been the size and cost of a house but today would be cheaper and smaller than the bulbs.

In the 60's it would have been done using mechanical timers and relay logic - not a computer in sight.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #53
08-11-2011 08:19 PM

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/tr...sings.aspx

Quote:
Each [pelican crossing] site is surveyed and the results compared with national criteria to identify the most needy locations. Factors measured include:

the number of people crossing
the amount of traffic
the number of injures on the road near the site
local features such as hospitals, schools and shops.


We have the high number wanting to cross here (bus stop, Church Vale short-cut, and retail units (real and potential) all on the other side.

We have the large amount of traffic at the times most people need to cross.

And we have the busy local features - the station exit and underpass.

So the need is pretty well established. The only criteria we fall short on is the number of road injuries.
It seems we PV side pedestrians are penalised because we seemingly are patient, have good eye sight and take great care crossing, or have just been lucky so far.

As for cost, it seems it can vary , but much of the work has already been done for this site, like drainage, kerbing, paving, barriers and road narrowing.

Installation costs would need to cover:
anti-skid surfacing,
road markings and studs,
new traffic signs,
electrical connection and
and new signal heads and poles.

£20k should easily cover it, and have spare left over for management bonuses and some crisps for the workers.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #54
08-11-2011 09:13 PM

Well, it's quite clear. If you want that crossing, and there aren't enough injuries... Yup, someone is going to have to take one for the team.

Of course, there may not have been many injuries because it isn't as dangerous to cross as you think it is. It might take a long time to cross when there is a lot of traffic, but is it dangerous?

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #55
09-11-2011 03:36 PM

lol I beg to differ about £20k covering the complete job, especially including equipment.
Also, how many roads of this width do you know with a pelican crossing? Try and think of some examples of similar crossings.

Also there is the issue of people going through 'late ambers' so not to be delayed.

Now ask another question, how long would 99% of the pedestrians crossing at this new crossing, be willing to wait for the lights to change to 'safely' cross. Personally I think as much noise as there is being made about this, very few would use it.

It is clear from the pattern in which people cross that they dont care where or how, its just got to be instant.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #56
19-01-2012 04:12 PM

More 'noise'.

I noticed recently that Lewisham have installed one speed sensitive sign for the traffic entering PV from the South Circular.
Speeding is not the issue here imo and a driver would have to be quite determined to get over 30 mph uphill in such a short distance.

I've only seen it fire once, and as I recall it only shows a crossing sign.
So for all other drivers, there are not many clues that this is, in theory, a crossing zone - which is the issue.

I think a pelican crossing would be heavily used here, and if this is a pelican zero sum game, then they can borrow the pelican from half way up London Rd. I rarely see this used and instead they can add some much needed pedestrian crossings facilities to the lights around the junction with Honor Oak Rd - across Honor Oak Rd in particular.

Hey, if it is justified having a diagonal crossing for the T-junction outside Smiths, lets have one on the PV side too! Very fashionable.

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InTheForest


Posts: 46
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #57
05-02-2012 06:53 PM

I find the worst bit is crossing over by Dawes for Doors. That little side road is a rat run as people can't turn left from Perry Vale onto the South Circ. BTW does anyone get the logic for the left turn ban? If people could turn left by the Co-op then there would be far less of a rat run.

I'm slightly boggled by the response from the Council that drivers wouldn't see the crossing in time. Surely a crossing is easier to see than a pedestrian in the middle of the road! I wouldn't want a Zebra though as the constant stream of people coming out the station would make life difficult for drivers. A set of lights for me.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #58
05-02-2012 09:12 PM

The no left turn is because there is a traffic light controlled crossing to the left.

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