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Riots in London
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The Grange Gem


Posts: 20
Joined: Feb 2011
Post: #1
07-08-2011 11:17 PM

As you know there has been riots in Tottenham & problems in Enfield. I think the guy shot dead in Tottenham by the police must have opened fired first so the police responded accordingly. The reason is that the policemans radio had the suspects bullet in it.

The argument that the police opened fire first does not hold water because if they did the suspect would not have been able to fire back. The guns the police use German Hecklers would immediately incapacitate the suspect (Always aimed at the chest).

Some people said that the deceased suspect was well respected in the community but its well known that he was a gangster with a criminal record a mile long. He was only respected by other crooks

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michael


Posts: 3,215
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #2
08-08-2011 08:32 AM

It is unfortunate that, once again, the information surrounding a man killed by police appears to change from day to day, just like with de Menezes.

On Friday - Sunday we were hearing:

Quote:
He [Mark Duggan] shot the officer from Scotland Yard’s elite firearms squad CO19 in the side of his chest with a handgun.

The bullet lodged in the police radio that the undercover officer was carrying in a side pocket.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...z1UQ1YJtPN

Clear, unambiguous, and based on police statements to the press.
This morning we read:

Telegraph Wrote:
However initial forensic tests suggest that the bullet is a hollow-point round as used by the Metropolitan Police.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission says they are awaiting further tests before they will know whether or not the bullet was a police-issue round.

But the results of the initial tests cast doubt on whether or not Mr Duggan actually fired at officers. It could also fuel further disturbances if it emerges that Mr Duggan did not fire at police.


There appear to be plenty of people in North London who believe that Mark Duggan had placed his gun on the ground before he was shot. But the IPCC has already ruled out the possibility that this was a police 'assassination' (before the ballistics have come back or an investigation carried out).

Added to this was the perceived reaction by police to the peaceful protest earlier in the day.

I certainly don't think any of this excuses rioting and looting. But it shows that the narrative provided by Grange Gem and much of the media over the weekend is questionable and that a full investigation is required, rather than speculation by people on the other side of London.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #3
08-08-2011 12:44 PM

I agree whatever happened re the earlier incident ( and do not think the guy was whiter than white ) the riots looting and burning were an absolute disgrace.

If MET cannot stop them should bring back the riot act and shoot looters as America and many other countries do.

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Jon Lloyd


Posts: 151
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #4
08-08-2011 01:27 PM

Shoot looters? You'd condone killing someone for stealing a TV? Excellent. Can we make this a new thread please admin: Who should we kill? Then we can keep on-topic for this one.

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Jon Lloyd


Posts: 151
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #5
08-08-2011 01:34 PM

In fact this is a much better idea, an even more modest proposal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...aw-instead

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #6
08-08-2011 01:35 PM

It is quite common in The States to shoot looters. Cannot imagine why you are so shocked.
Nothing is worse than anarchy.

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jollyrog


Posts: 81
Joined: Jul 2008
Post: #7
08-08-2011 01:46 PM

There must be a sound business case for shooting rioters and looters. Future benefits handouts and prison/legal costs can be saved.

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michael


Posts: 3,215
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #8
08-08-2011 01:48 PM

Brian, It is possible you are confusing the modern USA with the Wild West of the 19th century.
Have a read of http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/2...4049.shtml

Quote:
In the chaotic days after Hurricane Katrina, an order circulated among New Orleans police authorizing officers to shoot looters, according to present and former members of the department.

It's not clear how broadly the order was communicated. Some officers who heard it say they refused to carry it out. Others say they understood it as a fundamental change in the standards on deadly force, which allow police to fire only to protect themselves or others from what appears to be an imminent physical threat.

That doesn't sound like a country where police routinely open fire at looters.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #9
08-08-2011 01:49 PM

Can you give some examples of that, Brian? Are your referring to police or civilians shooting looters?

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Jon Lloyd


Posts: 151
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #10
08-08-2011 03:21 PM

I guess so Jollyrog. Plus the bodies could be burned to provide enough fuel to power the prisons, taking that burden off the tax payer too. In fact if we rounded up all the anarchists in the world and shot them we could live forever in peace and harmony. Why didn't anyone think of this before?

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #11
08-08-2011 03:31 PM

Either
If a shopowner shoots a looter then they get what they deserve.
I remember Korean shopkeepers in the LA riots doing this and were applauded by most people.

What are you suggesting letting them loot every shop in the country.

Surely if society breaks down the desperate measures need to be taken

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Jon Lloyd


Posts: 151
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #12
08-08-2011 04:23 PM

You're right Brian. Damn, why isn't everything as clear-cut as this? Can you tell us who else needs to be killed so we can send a letter to Mr Cameron, and of course Her Royal Highness?

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Scorpion


Posts: 121
Joined: Nov 2005
Post: #13
08-08-2011 04:29 PM

Whatever happened, initially, to start off this sorry state of affairs, for sure, is not yet known by all, so speculation is .... just that.
My sympathies & thoughts go out to the family of the person who died but also, to those homeless, injured, hurt, afraid & also in whatever way, affected by all of this.

I would just like to add a personal "tuppence-worth" - to the comments in the media of, it's because people "have nothing/are poor/are on benefits/from a particular ethnic background/are from single-parent families/no father-figure" etc. - many people who come from low-income families/on benefits/living on council estates/have-not's/not as much as others, do not always commit crime - if they did then, I would be very unhappy of my own parenting of my 3 sons who have been through some hard times (along with myself) but who have never committed any crime.
Of course there will be some people from this (my) "background" who do and have committed crime but please, do not tar everyone with the same brush.
Even if you come from a background of dis-advantage, it is no excuse to cause disturbance, rob/steal, hurt etc.

My thoughts (along with many others) are that the majority of those involved in the troubles in Tottenham, Enfield & elsewhere are of the trouble-making, criminal element and most locals do not support the actions that took place over the past few days.

In an ideal world, these events would not happen; sadly, this is not an ideal world. The solution? Many have ideas, many have put them forward. The current justice system does not seem to work. What will? I do not know.
I am just sad that this kind of thing is still happening, many years after the Blackwater/Brixton riots Sad

Sue

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stefan


Posts: 93
Joined: May 2008
Post: #14
08-08-2011 04:45 PM

Thank you Sue - you gave a lot of people a lot to think about

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penfold


Posts: 15
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #15
08-08-2011 05:56 PM

reports of police being attacked in Lewisham. Lewisham Town Hall been closed. be careful if going home that way....

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #16
08-08-2011 06:47 PM

Trouble in Lewisham wont bode well for looters given Lewisham police station is the largest in Europe.

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Scorpion


Posts: 121
Joined: Nov 2005
Post: #17
08-08-2011 06:48 PM

...... and elsewhere (more reports from Hackney etc) which proves the point; NOT related to the recent bad event in Tottenham, just an excuse for low-lifes (of any social denomination) to do their worst.
I feel sorry for the Police and Emergency Services who have to deal with this PLUS local communities/people and businesses.

So sickening Sad

Sue

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #18
08-08-2011 06:52 PM

Apparently Peckham too now.

I usually cycle home via Brixton so was going to go via Peckham and pick up a few bits and pieces on Rye Lane. I got to Camberwell and three police vans with riot gear went screaming past on the way to Peckham so I decided just to head home...

I have no problem with people demonstrating and protesting. But looting and destroying your own community infrastructure is entirely wrong and there's no excuse for it.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #19
08-08-2011 06:55 PM

I am puzzled why the police do not at least instruct the mobile companies to close the masts in areas concerned.

No one is poor in this country in relation to 75 or 50 years ago. This is pure thugery and should be dealt with harshly.
My solution is attacked but no one else offers a solution. Surely a shopkeeper should be entitled to use a gun to protect his property and family.

Once every shopping area in London has been burnt , what should we do then.

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Scorpion


Posts: 121
Joined: Nov 2005
Post: #20
08-08-2011 07:18 PM

Brian, I agree that some people are really not poor, with regard to having the best mobile phones etc. and usage of to contact others who like to cause mass disruption etc. such as these recent riots (we can go beyond this but now is not the time and place)

I do not, however, agree to the fact that people should own guns, to use at their will. America (mostly) have this advantage, and many innocent people die sometimes, through this access.

I do not know what can be done here (in the UK) but I DO KNOW that only really bad people will go out to riot, loot, hurt law enforcement and other emergency service personel AND destroy local businesses and homes; let alone putting many innocent people in harms way!

This is not a protest by concerned citizens, this is opportunist vandalism and destruction by trouble-makers only!

Making me feel sad, frustrated, sick and ashamed to be a Londoner (human & treat others humanely) at the moment, so so sad Sad

Sue

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