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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #101
11-06-2011 09:10 PM

I cycle - I don't use the pavement unless it's a shared use one and often, don't even bother then since the road tends to be far quicker. I'll use 'shared use' one if it avoids a big one-way loop or a nasty narrow junction but not otherwise. Of course, not using the shared use pavement can lead to drivers shouting at me but can't keep everyone happy.

Licensing-wise - my only comment on it is that we've had it for years for cars/motorbikes and people still drive stupidly so will it really make a difference.

The reason most adults give for pavement cycling is lack of confidence or being scared of traffic and there is something that can be done about that. Councils run free cycle training that can be tailored to the individual. It's one-on-one rather than in big groups and the instructors will tackle whatever the cyclist wants - from a rank beginner who wobbles to someone who is confident about cycling but just doesn't feel comfortable on busy roads. Bike shops and workplaces should promote this more.

I will reiterate though that even inept idiot cyclists on pavements will do their utmost to avoid hitting anything (grannies/prams/litterbins etc) since they are likely to get just as (or more) damaged that whatever was hit. Falling off your bike at any speed can hurt. A drunk vagrant at Vauxhall fell into the cycle path as I was going along it... I'd spotted him being a bit wobbly so had slowed down but he then fell into my path. I swerved and came off mostly upright but still ended up with a badly swollen knee and a bruise the length of my shin that stayed for 6 weeks. Although the worst thing about the experience was him trying to hug me to apologise....Scared

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #102
12-06-2011 10:23 AM

AS, you say that licensing motorists hasnít stopped all stupid driving, so thereís no point in having it for cyclists. Why bother with it for drivers, either? And since insurance, training and tax havenít stopped all stupid driving either, why bother with these?

Imagine Londonís streets then! Imagine the freedom! Anyone can just buy a car and drive it away. Fantastic! No licence, no training, no insurance, no tax. Just buy the vehicle and off you go. Anyone! Any age! Vroom-vroom!

And imagine that half the drivers donít care about the Highway Code, and quite a few of them donít even know there IS a Highway Code. Plus, the police donít bother much doing any policing. Lastly, imagine that many of these motorists believe that they are morally superior to everyone else and that this entitles them to do, well, whatever they like. Whatever they like! Like driving on the pavement! Fantastic! By the way, thatís not just ďdriving onto the pavementĒ, but ďdriving along itĒ. That would mainly be the motorbikes, Iím guessing. But fantastic either way! And the police wonít lift a finger!

What would we call this? The Casualty Road Show? The Boudicea Roller Derby?

What stops it from happening? Well, a number of reasons. Four are that road users need to be (i) licensed, (ii) taxed, (iii) trained and (iv) insured. That way thereís some chance of a road system that works reasonably well. Everyone pitches in and pays their dues, gets trained, etc to make the system work. Not perfectly, but reasonably well.

Would it be safer still if cyclists pitched in and did their share? Evidently. What makes cyclists so different from everyone else that they should freeload off everyone elseís efforts to make the thing work?

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #103
12-06-2011 01:55 PM

Quote:
National statistics (2007):
The total number of deaths in road accidents: 2,946.
Only half (49 per cent) of people killed in road accidents were car users.

646 pedestrians were killed in road accidents in Great Britain
Pedal cyclists and motor cyclists represented 5 and 20 per cent of those killed respectively. Occupants of buses, coaches, goods and other vehicles accounted for the remaining 5 per cent of road deaths.

The total number of road casualties: 248,000.


There is absolutely no comparison between the absolute carnage cars inflict on society and the inconvenience cyclists sometimes make. This is why motorists are supposedly licensed and insured and their vehicles road worthy.

On a lighter note, here is an amusing video of a cyclist making a point about all the things blocking cycle lanes by riding directly into them:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ[/youtube]

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #104
12-06-2011 04:08 PM

Not sure how those stats are relevant, unless cyclists need to leave a trail of dead pedestrians in their wake before licensing is justified. Personally, I think a trail of angry pedestrians is quite sufficient.

Off the web: ďThis is something that gets on my nerves. On my ride, just about every other cyclist I come across is a pavement cyclist. I had a go at one today on my way home, he must of been doing quite a bit of a pace along the pavement, which is used by school kids walking home.Ē

If only all cyclists were like this bloke!

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #105
12-06-2011 08:47 PM

A lot of cyclists are like that bloke. People don't notice cyclists who obey the Highway Code because we're not getting in their way. It's the idiots who break it who are most visible. As a regular cyclist, I see far more cyclists on the road than on the pavement (99:1 at most) and far more waiting in the ASL with me rather than swanning through a red light (probably 80:20). But it's the moron minority on the pavement and those going through lights that are most visible and give the rest of us a bad name. And cyclists seem to earn vitriol well out of proportion to any actual injury caused in part thanks to those idiots.

The police do set up sting operations to catch pavement cyclists and RLJ with fines particularly in the City and along the CS. I don't object to that in the slightest (aside from perhaps they'd be as vigilant in policing the ASLs) but while my comment on cars was intended to be slightly tongue-in-cheek, the logistics and costs of trying to license bicycles/cyclists so far outweighed the benefits.

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IWereAbsolutelyFuming


Posts: 531
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #106
13-06-2011 09:39 AM

If only we could base all new legislation on anecdotal evidence, what a great country we'd live in.

To go back to some of the recent comments, I'm not sure anyone has claimed to be a 'proponent of pavement cycling' on this thread. The points made about motorists have been made to highlight things like why some of us oppose licensing of cyclists (i.e. it takes attention and effort away from the policing of a statistically-proven, far more dangerous mode of transport). Still nothing has been provided in the way of solid evidence that cycling on the pavement has become a significant problem that justifies new legislation and licensing. One could almost argue that the lack of evidence of a serious problem might suggest that more pavements could become 'shared pavements' (come on, use that one against me, I obviously secretly cycle on pavements and want protection from the law in slowly winding my way on my journeys, zig-zagging around pedestrians and pavement furniture).

I'm also an overprotective parent to a 3 year old and a 5 year old and much of my pavement time is spent walking with them. And I'm a miserable toe-rag who can find a whinge in most things. But am I tearing my fast-receding hair out because of a plague of pavement cyclists? No, because it doesn't exist, suggestions that pedestrians are being outnumbered on pavements by cyclists are absurd. When I've experienced it (infrequently) I either shout my feelings (if I've had no warning) or shield my kids and use myself as a barrier to the cyclist's progress, hopefully forcing them into the road. I've also kicked a red-light-jumper's back wheel away when he narrowly missed us on the crossing by sainsburys.

Other than that...what Applespider (well) said

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #107
13-06-2011 05:04 PM

If 1% of people who you walked past in the street barged into you, I think youíd feel it was a problem. In any case, itís much more than that. Michael found two easily enough, and I randomly chose to go from there up past the Horniman and down Lordship Lane. Two more (some twerp outside Lloyds Bank and what looks like a fat teenager further down on the right). Thatís in the 10-12 minutes it took the Google car to travel that distance. Where are the other 396? I counted nine or ten real cyclists in that distance.

The numbers of pavement cyclists have certainly increased a lot from ten years ago and, most importantly, their sense of entitlement to be there is evidently increasing. This is the thing I find amazing, and disturbing. A societal shift seems to be happening whereby a group of people who felt victimised now, in turn, donít care about anyone but themselves. Undoubtedly there are other factors as well. My fear is that the authorities may cave in and legalise cycling on all pavements. After all, what is ďshared spaceĒ if not a pavement that was once just for us? So itís happening already.

This is why I feel that thinking the previously unthinkable (licensing etc) is appropriate. I donít believe itís just a bit of a nuisance that has always gone on. I think thereís an entirely new situation developing.

Anyway, Iíve started repeating myself, and also Iím expecting cyclists to be vaguely interested. Of course theyíre not. The pedestrians have been very clear on this thread that there is a problem, but the cyclists, as usual, say itís not serious, they make excuses for it, and, above all, they are not convinced that anything new needs to be done. Well, weíll see.

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #108
13-06-2011 05:24 PM

I haven't made excuses for it since I don't think there is one. It is only the frequency that we disagree on and therefore the impact that justifies licensing. I assure you that if cyclists were injuring or killing proportionately even a tenth of the same number as motorised vehicles (on or off pavements), I would be agreeing that the time to license had come.

In fact, my initial post was suggesting a way of countering the most commonly given reason (that of fear and lack of confidence) by suggesting ways of making the available cycle training better known. There is no part of me agreeing that cyclists have any right to be on a non-shared footpath nor denying that even on a shared footpath that the pedestrian still has right of way.

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seeformiles


Posts: 269
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #109
13-06-2011 10:27 PM

I walk down Union Street SE1 on the way to work where there's a clear cycle lane but every day I see cyclists using the pavement to overtake each other.

[/i]

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ryananglem


Posts: 167
Joined: Apr 2009
Post: #110
14-06-2011 10:00 AM

@seeformiles

I know that path, and really is the best advertisement for separated cycle tracks that there could be. If you dont know Union St, its not immediately obvious and if you dont know that its there as a pedestrian, a cyclist could easily come up behind you and scare the bejesus out of you - similarly its often people walk 3 abreast along the footpath/cycle track essentially blocking any cyclists path and forcing them into the oncoming traffic - which often mounts the pavement to get around the occasional parked car etc. Then halfway along the street it disappears into a new paved area in front of shops. Carnage. When Im cycling, I make a point to avoid Union St, Boris bikers however, love it.

@hillsideresident

I record my trips to work every day, and these legions of pavement cyclists are simply not visible in any of my footage. Not saying that they dont exist, but I'm not seeing the hoards you alledge, and neither is my camera. Perhaps google caught the exception, not the rule.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #111
14-06-2011 10:58 AM

Seeformiles, so what part of Union Road/SE1 do you work as I know this area very well, im in Southwark Road, the Blue Fin Building

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seeformiles


Posts: 269
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #112
14-06-2011 11:12 AM

Hi Forest Hillier,

I work near the corner of Southwark Bridge Road and Union Street.
On leave today so am enjoying the peace and quiet.

I started to use Union Street as it's an interesting part of town (art galleries, the Ragged School building, Pop Up Garden, Union Theatre etc) but do spend a lot of time dodging Boris (and many other) bikes!

Just to add that I'm very careful about avoiding cycle paths and always look out when I have to cross one so hopefully I don't fall into the category of dopey pedestrian. :-)

The latest cyclist to use the pavement to overtake did so when that stretch of Union St was very clear - he was impatient to get past another cyclist who I thought was already going at a fair speed, but the overtaking cyclist really bombed along. I suppose you get speed freaks in all forms of transport. Trouble is this fella got far too close to me and knocked my bag as he whizzed past. The issue for me is cyclists using the pavement, I don't have any strong opinions about licencing at this stage.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #113
14-06-2011 11:30 AM

Have a good day off

Yes I know where you mean, I walk down Union Road every Weds/Thurs lunchtime

I know this area so well - better than most of FH as Ive worked here so long, agree about some people who walk in the cycle lane in UR, will hold my hand up to being one of them, very odd as when you reach the bottom, they have as said by ryanandglem, paved it all over, bloody time they took was a joke

Probally seen you in the past. small world

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charles941


Posts: 10
Joined: Jun 2011
Post: #114
18-06-2011 10:58 PM

Only in so far as the current fines of 80 GBP on the spot would be too low in view of the type of threat to public health and safety.

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