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Undemocratic Liberals.
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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #1
08-05-2011 04:57 PM

I have seen Mr Deputy PM say that he will bar leglislation on such things as NHS reform in England if he does not agree 100% with them.

This is profoundly undemocratic. Health is a devolved issue and therefore Scots , Welsh and Ulster MP's should not be Voting.

Has it escaped the Deputy PM that The Conservative and Unionist Party have a large majority in England.
Of course all members should vote in non devolved matters , but not in devolved issues.
Why is it that England puts up with this double standard.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #2
08-05-2011 05:13 PM

Haven't we had this argument before?

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #3
08-05-2011 05:17 PM

Maybe but nothing has been done and the Deputy PM has brought it into the fore.

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Satchers


Posts: 262
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #4
08-05-2011 10:59 PM

Is that large Conservative majority the same one that saw only 36.1% of the electorate vote for them in 2010?

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Satchers


Posts: 262
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #5
08-05-2011 11:01 PM

Not electorate, but percentage of those that voted

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #6
09-05-2011 09:58 AM

Majority of seats . How we have governed the UK for some time.

I doubt if even Anthony Blair , of Fettes fame , had 50% of the Vote in 97.

I appreciate your comments about electorate but you have not said why MP's from the otherb 3 devolved regions should vote on devolved issues....

I know this has been discussed a lot especially in the run up to the Scottish Parliament , but I believe this Parliament is the first time when it is actually relevent.

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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
09-05-2011 10:23 AM

I don't think the West Lothian question has anything to do with Nick Clegg 'overruling' the Conservative health policy, it is about coalition politics. And I don't think he would have any hope of making such demands if it were not; a) very unpopular in England particularly amongst doctors, b) fairly unpopular with Conservative cabinet ministers, including Cameron.
Basically it all seems to be spin to me.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #8
09-05-2011 10:58 AM

It is not only this issue. Why should the MP's from the 3 regions be able to vote in England on devolved issues. Surely a valid question.

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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #9
09-05-2011 11:25 AM

It is a perfectly valid question, but entirely irrelevant to the issues you were talking about.

The problem is that solving the West Lothian question has too many ramifications for the political establishment. It would be possible to have a Secretary of State for Health who cannot vote for his/her own bill. In fairness the Secretary of States for Scotland and Wales would have to come from these nations. You can't really have a parliament with two classes of MPs.

But we do need a resolution to the West Lothian question, just like we need elections to the Upper House.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #10
09-05-2011 11:37 AM

Thanks Michael.

Surely the cheapest option is for non English to stay away from The House when devolved matters discussed. Then you would de facto have an English Parliament and a British Parlimament with no extra cost.

I agree Secretary's of State for the devolved regions should be an MP from that region.

Agree The Lords should be looked at. At the moment undemocratic and expensive. I do appreciate they do have a function of reviewing leglislation but are so many required.

In USA Senate has only 100 members . Our population 1/5th of The USA.
20 members might be a bit small but surely 50 full time members should be able to cope.

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jgdoherty


Posts: 282
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #11
09-05-2011 12:28 PM

The House of Commons is a British Institution, not formed exclusively for the benefit of any single member nation of the United Kingdom.

Historically and specifically pre-devolution, no elected party has had any qualms about whipping in English members to vote on exclusively Scottish, Irish and Welsh issues.

There is a potentially valid answer to the West Lothian question that merits real consideration.

If England has a desire to have powers that are similar to those that have been devolved to other member nations, then we should elect to form an equivalent English devolved body and delegate exclusively English matters to that body. For English-only matters members could vacate the House of Commons and move to deal with exclusively English issues in the devolved body.

To provide some balance, there is a strong desire in the UK to streamline the number of elected Members who sit in the House of Commons. The formation of an elected English body would provide a real opportunity to address this re-structure in an appropriate and proportionate way across all of the constituent nations.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #12
09-05-2011 03:24 PM

You refer to pre devolution when no matters were devolved. MP from Paisley just as entitled to vote then on now devolved English issues , and of course our Lewisham West MP could equaly vote on now devolved matters in Paisley.

The situation before devolution was for that all members voted on all issues in the UK. I frankly cannot see your argument.

This matter has only risen since devolution. I cannot see how the members from the 3 other regions have the cheek to vote in England on devolved matters

I believe the SNP normally does not vote on devolved issues , the main offenders are the Labour and Lib Dems.

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jgdoherty


Posts: 282
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #13
09-05-2011 04:03 PM

There is no argument here, merely a point for debate.

However I put it simply - if the nation of England wishes to devolve these types of matters from the House of Commons - let those arrangements be made and set-up a devolved assembly (or whatever label you choose) for England, it would seem entirely reasonable.

You do raise an interesting point when you illustrate what the SNP practice is, in absenting themselves from such votes. I believe this approach is principled.

However, how many members for non-English constituencies actually do vote on English issues that might be deemed equivalent to devolved matters?

If there are any - are they "whipped"? Are there specific party gains to be made if this practice remains in place? Does "Calm Down" Cameron or his co-conspirators the Lib-Dems or indeed the Labour party actually benefit from the practice ?

What are the numbers ?

I think we should be told.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #14
09-05-2011 05:00 PM

And don't forget that when the English had the chance to vote on the introduction of regional assemblies in 2004 (which would've had very similar powers to the then Welsh Assembly) they voted against.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm

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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #15
09-05-2011 05:11 PM

Londoners voted in favour of a regional assembly but it still doesn't have the powers of the Welsh assembly or Scottish parliament, despite representing more people than either one.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #16
09-05-2011 05:21 PM

nevermodern
Some English people were given the cnance to elect regional assemblies. These would just have been expensive talking shops with virtually no powers.


Scotland was given a parliament for the whole country , not one for Argyll and one for Angus etc etc.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #17
09-05-2011 05:26 PM

Indeed. England is a nation (like Scotland ), not a region.

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jgdoherty


Posts: 282
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #18
04-07-2011 11:56 PM

Good quality debate tonight on Newsnight (4 July 2011).

Amongst many excellent points made on the common ground held by Scots, Welsh, Irish and English was one very substantial necessity.

If the nation of England wishes devolve its national issues from the British House of Commons - let us set-up a national parliament for England.

Watch it on BBC IPlayer. I was re-assured that most people interviewed could easily relate themselves to their dual nationalty ie Engish and British and Scottish and British etc.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #19
05-07-2011 01:05 PM

I am British then English ( not the other way round ). I like Scotland the most of the Scots and agree that due to their more rural population they require more per head than those South of the Border. But has that gone too far. How can they afford free student fees and prescriptions for instance . What , if anything , are we getting that they are not.

Shame if they decide to break up the UK but as long as they pay their share of the debts then they should be allowed to if say over 55% vote for it. If between 50 and 55% then believe a second poll required.

What if Shetland wants to remain part of the UK , which is likely . It has never been truly part of ethnic Scotland so surely should be allowed to make up their own mind.

Do Scots living in England , Wales and NI get a vote ? Do non Scots get a vote in Scotland on the issue ?

What has happened to the once superior Scots education system. On Uni challenge last night Edinburgh had 4 English persons ?

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #20
05-07-2011 05:33 PM

Quote:
Do Scots living in England , Wales and NI get a vote ? Do non Scots get a vote in Scotland on the issue ?

No, yes, respectively, I'm sure. Voting in this country is based on your place of residence not your ethnicity (however defined), I'm glad to say.

Like Brian, I like and admire the Scottish nation and the achievements of Scots down the ages. Ditto the Welsh and the Irish. Unlike him however, I feel English first, European second and British third. I would like to see an English parliament. To me Britain is an artificial political union, tainted by its association with empire. I am accordingly disappointed that the recent opinion poll seems to show that I am in a minority.

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