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DLR Extension to Forest Hill
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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #1
02-05-2011 10:23 AM

The latest future planning for the DLR is to extend the service to Dagenham, Euston, Victoria and Forest Hill. A good analysis of these early options is presented at http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/...g-dlr.html



The idea of extending DLR from Catford to Forest Hill seems a strange idea as it would either require a tunnel or a viaduct built above the South Circular, and there would be little additional benefit to people in the centre of Forest Hill as the ELL provides faster connections to anywhere north of the river.

My preference would be to terminate the southern extension at Bell Green. Providing additional transport options to one of the poorest parts of Lewisham - Bellingham ward - on both sides of Bell Green. Lower Sydenham station could be moved to Bell Green with fast services to Charing Cross as well as the DLR to Canary Wharf.

Forest Hill (and the area of West Lewisham) still requires significant additional capacity to meet demand in the next couple of decades, but this is best provided by the Bakerloo line extension which can terminate at Bell Green as well, having come from Forest Hill, Honor Oak or Crofton Park. And before that we need longer trains on ELL and Southern, and more frequent services where possible. Full details of my submission to Network Rail on behalf of the Forest Hill Society can be read here.

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dbboy


Posts: 201
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #2
02-05-2011 11:56 AM

An extension to Fores Hill would be make journeys to Stratford and Waltham Forest quicker by negating teh need of getting to Lewisham topick up the DLR, so making accessing Lewisham much easier and quicker in particular from West Lewisham (Honor Oak)

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #3
02-05-2011 12:20 PM

Very interesting , especially how to get from Catford to FH. I think we are taking about minimum 10 years probably a lot longer so do not get carried away.

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rbmartin


Posts: 810
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #4
02-05-2011 01:41 PM

Locally, an extension would relieve the pressure on our local bus routes, especially the 185 which is full to capacity in the morning peak towards Catford and is liable to be delayed travelling along Stanstead Road.

At times, it's easier to travel to North London from FH, than it is to get to parts of our own borough!

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #5
02-05-2011 10:38 PM

It just sounds odd to me. The DLR I think runs on a different gauge so would need a whole new track? If viaducts are needed this seems to be a long way off due to cost, planning, consultation etc. Not sure what the benefits are or why we would want this extension. Is there a rush on to get to Catford? Perhaps a high proportion of Lewisham Council employees live in Forest Hill and are forever late!

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rbmartin


Posts: 810
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #6
02-05-2011 11:12 PM

The only way I can see the proposed extension working is to build a tunnel from Catford to FH station, possibly using the space on Perry Vale next to Forest Hill Cars as a station (with the platforms underneath, like Woolwich Arsenal DLR), which would connect with the current ELL station.

The map doesn't propose a station at the Old Fire Station end of Perry Vale which would be useful to connect Catford Bridge and Forest Hill stations as the bus service to those two stations are poor currently. This would also benefit the nearby schools on Mayow Road and relieve pressure from the 75 and 356 buses.

The other benefits could be to relieve pressure off the ELL and Southern services as passengers use the DLR to Canary Wharf instead of changing at Canada Water/London Bridge, it'd also connect us to Deptford and Greenwich for the first time without changing at London Bridge or using two buses.

However, I agree with Michael's proposal to extend the DLR to Bell Green instead, which would benefit one of the most deprived areas of the borough.

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Poppy9560


Posts: 273
Joined: Aug 2008
Post: #7
02-05-2011 11:29 PM

I think a link between Catford and Forest Hil is a wonderful idea - I would use it - is there a way of doing this incorporating Bell Green?
The 185 bus is slow and infrequent

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rbmartin


Posts: 810
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #8
02-05-2011 11:38 PM

Only if you run the service as two branches, one to Forest Hill, the other to Bell Green. The existing services would then have to be split between those two stations in the same way the current ELL trains are with West Croydon and Crystal Palace.

It would mean less trains to Forest Hill on the DLR if that happened running about the same frequency as the current 185 bus service which might lessen the benefits of having a DLR train every 5 mins to Catford.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #9
03-05-2011 11:49 AM

Tunnel from Catford. I think that is fantasy land it would cost the earth and this area not ideal for tunnels ( that is why few tunnels south of the river ).

About 20 years ago they were thinking of building a tunnel from The Grove Pub on Lordship Lane to Stanstead Road to take South Circular under Forest Hill. Was a great idea but did not get any further because of cost and problems in tunneling with local soils.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #10
03-05-2011 01:59 PM

Tunnel are not impossible in South London, but they are expensive and they are proportionally more expensive over short distances. As somebody I spoke to at TfL once put it; once you start tunnelling you might as well keep going.

Returning to geology, this map shows that there is no significant difference between north and south London or the Kent coast at Dover.



Improvements in tunnelling methodology even in the last 20 years mean that tunnels can be built deeper and quicker. Tunnellers learned a lot from the Channel Tunnel and the Jubilee Extension about rapid building of tunnels in South East England's geology. Alternatively you could use cut-and-cover techniques but this would mean closing Stanstead Road for a few years while the DLR is enclosed beneath.

But if you are tunnelling to Forest Hill it is better to come down the Bakerloo line rather than coming from Catford. If there is a need for more transport systems going directly to Canary Wharf then I would extend ELL phase 2 from Surrey Quays directly to Canary Wharf rather than relying on the Jubilee Line interchange at Canada Water. This does mean boring a short tunnel but the value in terms of passengers carried would be significant.

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Honor Oaker


Posts: 23
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #11
03-05-2011 03:02 PM

I saw this on London Reconnections and wondered where the idea could possibly have come from. Of all the proposed extensions to the DLR an extension to Forest Hill via Catford seems by far the most ill-conceived. Much of the DLR system is built on pre-existing alignments, and as has been pointed out by others here, a route from Catford to Forest Hill would require an entirely new (and costly) alignment. I think that any extension of the DLR south of Lewisham could be problematic, given that the line is already running at something approaching full capacity. The DLR was designed primarily as a local metro service with frequent stops, and is not ideally suited to longer distance travel. The best opportunity for improved connectivity from Forest Hill is the potential Thameslink metro service, which would provide direct links from stations between Norwood Junction and New Cross Gate to Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St. Pancras International and points north.

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Prampusher


Posts: 34
Joined: May 2010
Post: #12
07-05-2011 07:33 PM

I am no expert on guage width, viaducts or tunnels. All I would add is that I live in FH and work on the Strand. Currently I go by train from FH to London Bridge and then squeeze into any train going to Charing Cross. Annoyingly there are plenty of trains from Charing Cross to Catford Bridge / Lower Sydenham, so any link between Catford and FH would be welcomed by me, in whatever guise. I think there must be lots of other people like me who are frustrated that there are (or were) trains going from FH to Charing X in off-peak hours, but not in the rush hour. The change at LB is the low point of my commute.

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Prampusher


Posts: 34
Joined: May 2010
Post: #13
07-05-2011 07:34 PM

I should point out that because of childcare arrangements, I have to go from FH. Otherwise I would just walk to Catford Bridge.

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rbmartin


Posts: 810
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #14
07-05-2011 09:22 PM

There are some of us old enough who may remember when under Network SouthEast when we had weekday and Saturday off-peak through services to Charing Cross from FH/HOP which were axed in the mid 90s.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #15
10-05-2011 07:50 AM

Could it run in tramlines in the road?

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #16
10-05-2011 08:03 AM

DLR is not a tram and I suspect there would be major logistical problems in running it along a busy road, not least of which is that DLR does not have a driver, so any unexpected obstruction (e.g. a car or a child) might not be spotted by a fully automated system.

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blushingsnail


Posts: 365
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #17
10-05-2011 10:43 AM

rbmartin: is your memory playing up? We still had off-peak services to Charing Cross until last year!

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #18
10-05-2011 10:50 AM

I think rbmartin means off peak to Charing X during the day (although as a blow-in, my memory doesn't stretch as far back as the 90s) - the service last year was off peak in the evenings only, wasn't it?

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blushingsnail


Posts: 365
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #19
10-05-2011 11:02 AM

Service to Charing Cross until last year: weekday evenings and Saturday evenings, Sunday all day. I don't recall the day-time services though - not much use if you were at work all day! I remember when Sunday services were only every half hour though and was delighted when they increased to 4 trains an hour.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #20
10-05-2011 11:51 AM

To be honest I found the rail service more suitable before ELL came along. Services were more frequent. Charing Cross is normally my destination.

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