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Manor Mount - Abuse of One-Way System
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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #101
17-06-2009 03:01 PM

Brian wrote:
Pedestrian lights here are very much needed.


Nooooo! That would just increase the length of the traffic queue, while the pedestrians get a separate phase and the red lights are even longer.

Brian wrote:
.... I found alternative routes...


Yes, this is part of the problem. Those seeking alternative routes, and finding Manor Mount denied them (let's assume, just for a moment, that some motorists aren't going to go the wrong way), rat run down the other "connecting" roads to Devonshire Road, as people like Roz have found to their cost.

Brian wrote:
... possibly on purpose are to discourage local journeys....


What happens if your journey is not local? You get even more hacked off as you have the rest of the south circular (grrr....) to deal with once you've got past the lights. Besides I still take the car to Sainsbury's as I can't carry all the shopping up the hill.

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Cellar Door


Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #102
17-06-2009 03:25 PM

brian wrote:
...choosing which laws to observe is the thin end of the wedge.

Absolutely.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #103
17-06-2009 03:50 PM

We seem to have lurched into the absurd. To start claiming that mugging is against the law and turning onto a one way street is against the law therefore comparable is as patently ridiculous as to claim that anyone who has ever driven at 31mph on a 30mph limit road is as bad as Fred West. Let?s at least try and recognise that the law is supposed to be an expression of the will of the people. Thus the election of representatives to government, and Jury system of the people to render judgement on their peers. If a law commands no common respect by the tradition of liberty than governance by popular consent cannot be said to be occurring. What we seem to have here is a tiny number of people who happen to live there are quiet taken by the fact that traffic outside their house is down and now want to sound off from the moral high ground.

We already have a swath of CCTV and remote enforcement that has been gleefully lapped up by many on this thread. Albeit with caveats such as ?only used for?, well hate to break it to you but the state and especially local councils have a fantastic record of overreaching. Which is why we now get spied on by our councils through use of the anti terror legislation. Indeed I remember as little as 15 years ago you used to see police cards patrol the road backed up by a good number of unmarked cars who would occasionally pull people over. Now we just have no police and masses of Speed Cameras. So people can and do, drive extremely badly and dangerously, but as long as they slow down while driving through cameras they do so with utter impunity.

However, all of my above post is as unnecessary as the points it is responding to.

We have a small number of people who this one way system appeals to because they live on it. We then have a much larger number of perfectly decent taxpaying law abiding people who just want to go about their lawful business, in the small space of time they have in-between working all day to pay off Gordon Browns staggering level of debt, and having to sleep. They resent sitting 30 cars back watching one or two cars peal off at the bottom of the hill, due to bad road planning. They see an empty road and decide that its not going to hurt anyone if they go down there. And they?re right! (despite the fantasies of dozens of dead children littering the road that some have dreamt up)

Now the nub of it. We could never all agree that returning the road to something obviously sensible like 2-way, because of the people who self interest would be affected would just start getting hysterical again. Perhaps we should all agree that the timings on the lights should be at least doubled to say 4 seconds. So there is a massively reduced temptation to use that inviting looking empty road. Perhaps is such a modest proposal could be represented to the powers that be they might consider it.

In between employing people for the sake of it to use up our taxes that is.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #104
17-06-2009 03:57 PM

?I agree with penultimate post the law here should be obeyed , choosing which laws to observe is the thin end of the wedge.?

I have to wonder if some on here welcome any and all state mandates regardless of merit.

Indeed, I can only assume you applaud the light sentencing given to the mother/guardians of Baby P. Or the myriad of other examples I could cite at you that would clearly demonstrate your keen to speak up for the ?law? when its suits you, but quick to dismiss it as ?what is wrong with this country? when it does not.

As I said in my other post governance by popular consent, and this one way street is as another poster quite right pointed out:

?Sorry, but what reason is this road, (with its large private houses), one-way? Traffic to the sainsburys car park is forced to use Waldenshaw Rd (past a nursery school) instead.

Yes it residential, and the rush hour short cutters need to be deterred, but some humps and a speed limit seems more appropriate given that a legitimate, popular, local destination is at the end of the road.

This one-way system is the abuse.?

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #105
17-06-2009 04:02 PM

'' the law is supposed to be an expression of the will of the people. ''
Is it? First time I heard that one. I'll check some and Law Society definitions and get back to you.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #106
17-06-2009 04:23 PM

"Is it? First time I heard that one. I'll check some and Law Society definitions and get back to you."

I see your point.

Personally I was thinking more along the lines of John Locke, David Hume, Edmund Burke and John Stuart Mill myself. However, if you?re the type of person who prefers to get their notions of State, Law and Liberty from the committee approved dictates of a quango I think we are probably going to be in separate ball parks altogether.


So any danger we should agree that the timings on the lights should be increased, or just wait until enough complaints come in that the road goes back to being 2-way?

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #107
17-06-2009 04:29 PM

Yes, that small amount of people who like the one way system because they live on it. What filth! How dare they care about their own immediate surroundings? Don't they realise there are car drivers to placate? They barely deserve to live! When we all live in a Clarksonite dictatorship things will be so much better, and we'll be able to have low taxes, great services, and no debt! It'll be great!

Dan, you are the embodiment of why motorists get a bad name. Your lack of consideration for anyone else is astonishing. It's all me me me. It's an inconvenience to you, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing for everyone. Learn a bit of respect.

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Westwood Bear


Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #108
17-06-2009 05:12 PM

Something certainly needs to be done. I suspect it will take a serious incident to occur before any action is taken. I have written to Lewisham Council on this issue and they are clearly aware that there is a problem here, but are not prepared to do anything about it. They feel that it is up to the police to enforce the law, and the police feel that having a few officers standing half way down Manor Mount once a month is an adequate deterent. I beg to differ.

My wife collects our two toddlers from a nursery at the bottom of the hill late every afternoon. See drives lawfully up Manor Mount and turns on to Honor Oak road. Twice in the last month she has been badly shaken by the behavour of drivers illegally coming down the hill. On each occasion she has been approaching the junction with Honor Oak road but has been forced to reverse back down the hill due to the illegal and bullying actions of miscreants forcing their way past her to drive down Manor Mount. The worst of these two occasions featured a utility truck that forced her to reverse after sticking his head out of the window and verbally abusing her.

I do agree that the light phasing should be changed to ease the queues trying to access the south circular, but I cannot condone those that respond by taking the law in to their own hands.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #109
17-06-2009 06:33 PM

The Council are in fact prepared to do something- I have arranged to meet them on site at some point soon to discuss. They are aware of the experiences set out on this website so any more are only grist to the mill. There is a lot of councillor support for this issue as many have admitted similar experiences themselves.

Westwood Bear's tale or rather his wifes experiences are very much in line with my own recent experiences of being forced to reverse down the hill.

Dan, with an attitude and mode of expression as pleasant as yours, nothing would please me more to be in a separate ball park from you; you New York, me, South London. A large stretch of water in between, please.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #110
17-06-2009 06:39 PM

I am sorry if it upsets some but a proper crossing is really required at the junction. This is a really dangerous crossing.
Cannot understand why council have done nothing on this.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #111
17-06-2009 07:11 PM

?Yes, that small amount of people who like the one way system because they live on it. What filth! How dare they care about their own immediate surroundings? Don't they realise there are car drivers to placate? They barely deserve to live! When we all live in a Clarksonite dictatorship things will be so much better, and we'll be able to have low taxes, great services, and no debt! It'll be great!

Dan, you are the embodiment of why motorists get a bad name. Your lack of consideration for anyone else is astonishing. It's all me me me. It's an inconvenience to you, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing for everyone. Learn a bit of respect.?


Baboonary, I?m sorry to have to say it but that response was hysterical.

I have to point out I?m not advocating taking anything from anyone, not even you, so your charge of selfishness rings extremely hollow.

I don?t begrudge you wanting to improve your immediate surroundings or increase your house value. But it is important to understand that if everyone had license to bar 50% of traffic outside their own home everyone would and the roads would come to a standstill.

I do personally think that in an effort to improve the house value of a small number of people is not worth jamming shut a road that severs a considerably larger number of people. HOWEVER, I never asked you to accept reverting to a 2-way system. I quite appreciate that it would be contrary to your self-interest and would produce a visceral reaction, which it did.

Rather I suggested a compromise of encouraging the council to increase the timing on the lights as this would treat the underlying problem rather than spending huge sums of tax-payers money on treating the symptoms. Surely we could agree on this one simple point?

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #112
17-06-2009 08:05 PM

Dan,
I don't live there, and have never said I did. I just have the capacity to think of someone other than myself. Your jump to house prices is absurd. I doubt house prices have very much to do with it for most people - again, not everyone is motivated by naked self interest. A baseless insult trying to project your own selfishness onto others.

Combined with your contemptible trotting out of the far right's 'National Socialist' lie on the other thread I find you a useless interlocutor and will feed your ego no further.

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monika


Posts: 16
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #113
17-06-2009 08:17 PM

The one way system does save lives because it is designed to allow ambulances freer access out to the South Circular from Waldenshaw and David's Roads and onto Honor Oak Road via Manor Mount. Whether you have to sit in your car for an extra five minutes is not really the issue.

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michael


Posts: 3,251
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #114
17-06-2009 10:59 PM

Changing the lights timing on Honor Oak / London Road is the obvious improvement that needs to be made. During most of the day the timing is to allow cars to pull out for 12 seconds out of approximately 2 minutes. TfL control the timing of the lights and refuse to acknowledge any problem. They do not care about jams on Lewisham Council roads as their only interest is the keep the South Circular moving.

The South Circular is not for us, it is for people wishing to go round London without touching the congestion zone. Local people are simply an inconvenience to them. Why can't everybody just go round the south circular without getting on or off? If only Londoners would stop using it they could make the traffic go faster.

Being a bit more serious again, the lights do not need a pedestrian phase, but they do need a decent pedestrian refuge, wide enough for parents and pushchairs, there should be an indicator for pedestrians when it is safe to cross half way - just like the junction between Dartmouth Road and London Road.

I have never liked Manor Mount being a one way system but it is and I am sure there were good reasons when it was introduced 20 years ago. People going the wrong way are driving dangerously and cause an obstruction to drivers who are obeying the law. Unlike most CCTV cameras what many people would like to see introduced here is a camera that will only take photos when people are breaking the law. It would not photograph anybody else who is not breaking the law. If peoples' real objection is CCTV cameras then I do not think that a proposed enforcement camera at this junction should be the target of your concerns, when there are thousands everywhere filming us all the time.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #115
18-06-2009 06:56 AM

Michael
You could be right that no pedestrian phase on the lights needed but as you say something needs to be done as people have no idea if it is safe.
You can see traffic not moving coming from HOR but traffic from S C and Tesco's turn very fast into the road.
The present arrangement is a disaster waiting to happen

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michael


Posts: 3,251
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #116
18-06-2009 07:15 AM

I agree, and I raised the crossing with the council and TfL (not for the first time) a couple of weeks ago along with the crossing on Sydenham Rise to the Beach, where there was a fatality a couple of months ago, and the bottom of Taymount Rise where a wall and bus stop have been destoyed by stray cars on the pavement 4 times in as many years.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #117
18-06-2009 08:33 AM

http://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.php...4#pid18904

"Combined with your contemptible trotting out of the far right's 'National Socialist' lie on the other thread I find you a useless interlocutor and will feed your ego no further."


Blimey this is getting off-topic fast. I'm starting to find you quite offensive, your clearly trying to slander me now. I have linked the post you refer to now so its clear that I was speaking out very very clear AGAINST the the National Socialists in the BNP and their warped far left thinking. I am local and I ask that if you feel the need to slander and insult me you arrange to do so in person rather than attempting to mislead on a forum. Now kindly get back on topic rather than trolling me for your amusement. You can send me PMs, if you feel the need to insult.

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admin
Administrator

Posts: 421
Joined: Dec 2002
Post: #118
18-06-2009 08:44 AM

Agreed, such one-to-one 'discussions' belong elsewhere so further similar posts will be removed.
Move along now people, nothing to see here.

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Cellar Door


Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #119
18-06-2009 09:01 AM

roz 11-06-2009 11:50 AM wrote:
?I am arranging to meet Councillors and Council staff at a meeting very shortly on a site visit.
I would like to take to the meeting a record of other peoples experiences with problems on this stretch of road so if anyone has anything to report would you please either post the details on here or PM me?

Cheers roz for taking action on this. I don?t have any experience with problems on this stretch to report but I do see the snaking queues on Honor Oak Road as I whizzzzzzzzzzz past on my cycle.

What I?d like to share is that I was chit-chatting with an owner of one of the businesses on David?s Road last night who?s been living in the area since Boudicca was causing trouble. He thought that a roundabout was a possible solution at this corner with Manor Mount becoming two way again.

I?m wondering if there are any SE23.com Forumers who have experience in say, Town Planning or Traffic Planning etc and could signal whether this idea has potential? Or not.

As a cyclist, I really like roundabouts as it often causes traffic to slow down a little bit at these junctions.

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Dan on the Hill


Posts: 36
Joined: Jan 2009
Post: #120
18-06-2009 09:20 AM

Quote:
He thought that a roundabout was a possible solution at this corner with Manor Mount becoming two way again.


Its an idea, it would have to be a mini obviously. But I would have thought it would just encourage traffic to turn left, since taking the first exit is the easiest thing to do on a roundabout. I had thought that the idea would be to allow quite legitimate road users going to Sainsburys a legitimate destination a route and also avoid long tail backs on Horman Drive. A roundabout might actually channel traffic there.

Perhaps if it is going to be widened at the top, an good number of speed bumps (the really annoying steep ones) on the top bit would have the effect. And those square speed bumps on the lower parts that are designed to let ambulances speed over them. Although of course white vans can too.

On a side note, I did take this route to work this morning and I did notice that the timings seem to have been upp'ed recently. Does anyone know what the timing actually are, if not I'll stand there with a stopwatch like a right saddo tonight! It was certainly smoother getting off the hill than it has been, or maybe everyone just knows to carry on going even on amber now to get a couple more cars everytime?

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