Your integrity is in question. I observe you reading this thread at 12:37pm after your posting at 09:55am.

I have to agree and side with VintageM on this one and also to commend Joco on his/her comment from earlier on in the thread...it's much easier to be destructive rather than constructive about a planning application when it's not you who is taking the risk... Joco , who admits to having some uncertainties about the architecture and whose house looks directly at the proposed site, is able to think outside the box and construct some positive arguments to why the build is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. I would like to propose a challenge to those who have offered, so far, only negative comments about the architecture to point out to me one privately funded piece of outstanding and daring modern architecture that has been constructed in SE23 in the last 10 years.

Watch out VintageM the forum police are after you!!!!

Very well warned, celticexplorer. And subsequently read by vintagem. They just worked out how to make themselves invisible on this forum.

Dear Admin

Please can we have a "like" button?

In response to Celticexplorer, I have lived in Forest Hill for 26 years. It may be occasionally tatty but it is that 'tattiness' that has kept FH affordable for so long and which allows the eclectic mix of people to live here to form such a balanced community for so long and which still plays host to the thousands of people whose families have lived in this area for generations.
For the record, Forest Hill has always been a pleasant place to visit( or so my friends and relatives tell me), and great to live in, even in the more depressing times. When I arrived here it was pretty much middle class nirvana with two delis, a grocer, two bakeries, and a butcher. There was a stampede to buy property here until the crash of the late 80's which caused considerable and long lasting damage to the property scene and local economy. I personally saw the flat I had bought halve in value in little over a year, plunging me into negative equity for the best part of 7 years. This was commonplace with lots of blocks of flats falling into disrepair.
It took Forest Hill a great deal longer to come out of that situation than most parts of London. Most of us longstanding residents have managed for many years with the long standing local caffs and greasy spoons and pubs which now seem to attract so much derision for their lack of lattes. I personally always saw the potential of the place but felt in a way that it if did suddenly take off people on middle incomes like me could not afford to live here and that would be a great shame. I welcome the new businesses that have arrived but to be truthful these places only take calculated risks based on the changing nature of the population so they are followers rather than innovators. Once the market changes, they will be off, don't think they won't.- its happened before.

My view therefore is that Forest Hill, with the perennial jewel in the crown that is the Horniman, and steadfast businesses such as MacKays, EJ Carpets, has always had it good, even without the latte and mojito culture. These have been and are only the icing in the cake. I have therefore for over a quarter of a century witnessed and overheard comments about Forest Hill being on the way up. Many people are still waiting for their view of ' up' to be fulfilled. If the way up for you is synonymous with East Dulwich, then you'll be waiting a long time, as I don't think the Forest Hill definition of going up in the world falls into that category nor does it wish to be ' extraordinary' as suggested. Its mere ordinariness is perhaps what is extraordinary.

You credit new businesses and entrepreneurs with the 'change' that has occurred in this area. That is only part of the story. Forest Hill has prospered not because of the 'pop up' coffee shop culture , but because people ( like me and many others) have stayed here trying to make things better by campaigning 20 years or so for the retention of the pools in one of the many occasions they were under threat, (and not being fickle by moving off to trendier areas with quicker wins)by being involved in the Forest Hill Steering Group that preceded the FHS , (and even being the founder members of the Forest Hill Society!) by choosing to raise our families here and support local businesses when it was probably more trendy to be seen in the pubs of East Dulwich or central London. I applaud people like June Olney and her late husband Michael Davey , who set up and kept going with Forest Hill Traders Association and Forest Hill Day, business like EJ Carpets, and Mackays whose committment to the area is undisputed,. and other wonderful local people who campaign day in and day out on our Council estates for better facilities and services. But that probably isn't trendy enough for you nor the right sort of change, but that is the reality of the Forest Hill community which makes things tick over and which has made FH what it is today.

Roz, I have to say I totally agree with you.

Excellent post, Roz. I've been here since 1986 and I agree with every word you say.

Well Roz, we seem to be living in two totally different Se23's. I moved from Blackheath, having lived there for 13 years, looking for the Forest Hill that you speak of because I felt that Blackheath had lost that edge and had become the type of 'trendy' area that you speak of. I am a great fan of Forest Hill and have always felt that it has so much potential but if I am honest then I will say that there is a lot about Forest Hill that saddens me. My mother who is 73 visited me last year and got mugged and punched to the rear of the Co Op on Stanstead Road, the shop across the road from me was held up in August, on a regular basis people are seen to urinate inside the entrance of Havelock Walk, I spoke to someone just the other day who lives on Westbourne Drive who had had his car window smashed, I have seen shops open and shops close because they have no passing trade because in reality very few people actually shop in Forest Hill,one day last year I walked all over Forest Hill and photographed the shops, it depressed me to see that so many were boarded up and closed and of those that were left there were many that I would just not want to go into, also I dislike it when I walk down London Road and I see discarded chicken legs and boxes from the number of fried food outlets that we have, one person told me the other day that he actually had some of that chicken thrown at him as he cut his hedge...the thing is Roz I could go on and on and I am sure that a lot of people reading this could add their own stories of negative experiences that that they have had in Forest Hill, maybe these are things that don't bother you. So as a response to your suggestion that I believe that it's latte's and mocha's etc that define an area then let me tell you that it's not anywhere near as complex as that, in fact it's much more simple...I want to live in an area that's clean and safe, that's burgeoning and vibrant, a place that can retain a certain level of sophistication and where its residents treat it with respect, and where business's can operate without the constant fear of of having to close down. I spoke with the owner of one of our local restaurants the other day who said that he had come through such a bad time over the last two years but now , with these changes that you seem reluctant to see, he was feeling much more confident and much happier. Now, if that means having mocha selling coffee shops, or a butcher or a deli or a bakers or in this case a new building project to make this change in Forest Hill happen then I say bring it on because it will lead to a much better situation than the ghost town that Forest Hill was 5 years ago...lets not put hurdles in front of those who are prepared to take the steps that the rest of us struggle to take, the more that these people achieve will mean the more attractive Forest Hill is to other prospective residents and business's, unless that is you don't want anyone else to come to Forest Hill in case they are too trendy or forward thinking??? By the way, I was not aware that it was a prerequisite to have spent 20 years or more in your area before you start to care about it!

I'm not one who has offered any negative (or positive) comments but I would suggest there are a few interesting pieces of modern architecture in Forest Hill.

Ringmore Rise is one recent example. There is another self-build house being built behind Ringmore Rise that is possibly quite interesting, but not visible. Planning permission has been given to an 'interesting modern building' on the edge of Albion Millennium Green, and there is another development proposal on Westbourne Drive and on Canonbie that are quite interesting.

In addition there are a number of modern buildings that I would have difficulty defining as interesting, but they can be found on Round Hill, Perry Vale/Hindsley Place, Sainsburys on London Road, and the extension to the Horniman should not be overlooked. I agree with Baggydave that Forest Hill has an interesting mix of different architectural styles from various eras.

The mugging of celticexplorer's mother is disgusting and I'm very sorry to hear about that, but all the bad things you have to say about Forest Hill apply equally to any other part of London. In fact as a place becomes more popular, it often attracts more crime and litter.

On another point, I think it is unfair of people who have shown no interest in posting on SE23.com in the past to criticise people who are regular contributors on a variety of subjects and who have a passion for improving Forest Hill and the community. I started this thread to allow people to express their opinions (politely if possible), not to be shouted down or slagged off for expressing opinions one way or another. The mark of 'interesting modern architecture' is that it should provoke some debate, and there will be differing opinions.

Hi Michael , thank you for the sentiments about my mother..she got away with a black eye and a few tears....maybe the defining word in your response is 'few' because that is the case, there are not very many. I struggle to think of any outstanding...having never seen it before I take you point on Ringmore Rise, whether one likes that architecture or not it is plane to see that the owner has at least made an attempt to build something interesting and has challenged the status quo.. Sainsbury's and the Horniman are not I am sure privately funded but even if we included them there are still very 'few' examples of good recently made 'modern' architecture in Forest Hill..now if I asked the reverse question...and I know it's subjective..but never the less..name or point out examples of what could be considered as bad or mediocre architecture...the point is ..it's much easier to do so because there's so much more of it.....just in my patch here there are are so many badly considered pieces 'recent' of architecture and I am sure it's the same throughout SE23.

Michael, you don't appear to have read my earlier posting. In deed the Hofhaus on Ringmore Rise is architecturally interesting. But it also represents many things I find wrong about developers and the planning process in Lewisham. It is too close to the downhill neighbours. They have constructed a retaining wall that is ugly and a blight on the downhill neighbours. And before you ask, unlike the yet to be built turret, and the unfinished 30s glass house on Ringmore Rise, the Hofhaus cannot be seen from my property. I believe that there is a 'me first' generation moving to SE23. None of this is aimed at Jeff by the way who appears to be genuinely interested by the impact on neighbours.

Nice post Vintagem by the way. I always support members being controversial and stirring things up. I've been doing it for years, but you have to be around to answer.

Celtic Explorer, SE23 is not just Forest Hilll. One could argue that HOP is becoming far more boheniam and certainly does not have the mass of empty or ever changing shops that FH has.

In response to Celtic explorer, no I don't think only people need to live somewhere a long time before they care about a place, its just that your previous posts seemed to suggest that life stopped and started in the last year with the influx of coffee shops entrepreneurs, totally disregarding the possibility that many people have been working hard behind the scenes for a long time to maintain what we already have let alone improve things. And no, I don't recognise the term 'ghost town' being applicable here 5 years ago. I share your concern about crime but I don't necessarily think that gentrification is going to improve that- I see it as a negative influence to be honest as it means that people are more likely to rob or mug. Unfortunately my Forest Hill is definitely not your Forest Hill, but I hope you start to feel more comfortable around these parts as I still think crime is relatively low compared to other places. I just don't think however that Forest Hill is ever going to become East Dulwich, and to be honest, I;m pleased about that.

As Michael has said, there are quite a few interesting buildings and streetscapes in Forest Hill- we have a Christopher Wren steeple in someones private garden, a number of Arts and Crafts houses, and some really nice 1930's estates, both council and private. We also have one of the original Walter Segal self build housing estates which people come from miles around to see. Perhaps not outstanding but then thats in the eye of the beholder. I genuinely don't see iconic buildings as always a good thing unless perhaps you are right on the South Bank.

Forest Hill will have "come up" when any of the coffee shops has more than two Bugaboos in it at one time.

Are any of the coffee shops big enough to fit more than 2 bugaboos!

Londondrz, I thought there was a permanent exhibition of Bugaboos in the Horniman cafe.

I see a 'Bugaboo' is a kind of pushchair. Has it some sort of special sociological significance?

When you pretty much need a mortgage to buy one, yes.

Horniman doesnt count as interlopers from Dulwich skew the demographic.

Bugaboos are a perambulator (pram) much favoured by "posher" mothers or social climbers.

Sits back and awaits the flack

They are particularly easy to push up hills after a c section compared to a McClaren which is why they are recommended.
Anyone thinking that se23 mothers are too posh to push ought to try pushing any buggy up Manor Mount or Westwood Park.

Back to the main subject, any further thoughts on this development or Forest Hill architecture in general?