I have worked and lived in both London and Melbourne in the past decades. Although both UK and Oz have similar sorts of benefits, they make it more complicated to apply for and continue to receive benefits in Oz. They put all the onus on the receiver and punish for any transgressions even if you are innocent of intent. Every part of your life is examined and you must show original documents to prove every single detail. Every thing is subject to a Means Test (what your income and assetts are).


I certainly preferred to work rather than apply for any benefits in either country. As my working life in UK was not a long one I receive 11.30 per week State Pension. I kept working until I returned to Oz for family reasons, and worked there. I can no longer work for health reasons, and have been trying to get a part Aged Pension in Oz. For every dollar that I earn from any source (including the UK pension of 11.30 pounds per week) I lose half of it from pension. My assets are looked at the same. I may only receive a very small pension but I will be covered for cheap medicine and medical treatment. The NHS is a favourite wipping boy but do you realise what it is worth to a family?

Families in Oz receive a similar benefit to Family Tax Credit, and have similar complaints regarding child care costs but can receive government assistance with part of this. So the arguments being put for staying at home or going back to work are similar. Housing costs here in Melbourne are very high as are rents. There is NO Council paying anyones rent and there is very very little public housing. There is a rent assistance for those whose only income is Disability or Aged Pension but the ceiling on benefit is set at about one quarter of market rents. I currently have my son and two teenage grandchildren living with me as his business is going to the wall....he is not eligible for any benefits at all.

I say all of this to show that the UK benefits system is not so different and in fact is more generous than most. Some people fall through the net (as i would if I claimed any sort of benefit in UK) and this is hard on them. I am sorry that parents of young children feel they must give up their care into the hands of strangers. It must be hard.

And statements like ' my wife stayed at home so why can't you' aren't in the bigoted category? I earn more than my partner so it makes sense for me to work more whilst he carries a larger responsibility for childcare. The fact is that things have changed and earnings haven't kept up with property prices and certainly not with energy prices so everything is a lot more expensive. I'm sorry that £200 per month for a family of 5 to live on seems a lot; trust me, when you take off what you need for nappies and formula , around £60 per month for nappies and £30 per month for formula for twins , that doesn't leave a lot of change.

And as to benefits, state pensions are surely that. As are tax credits. So why is it ok for people to draw state pensions when they might be receiving a healthy private or company pension as well , or even working part time, whilst those who receive tax credits to support a family are being castigated for just taking some of their fair dues a bit earlier?

People who pay tax now matter, but its an inescapable fact that there will be more people receiving pensions in the future presenting quite a problem for those in work who will have to work longer and harder to support the system for others and for their own pension pots in the future.

Well things are going that way already - my generation will have to retire considerably later as it is - assuming there is enough work to go round.

I'm not sure there was a golden age when we all had it so much better. For instance I had the opportunity to buy the flat I rented in Greenwich in the early 90s - my landlord offered me a good price - £70,000. But as I was only earning £9,000 at the time - it was still beyond my reach!

I eventually did buy a flat but I could weep when I think of how nice that place was.

I agree things are difficult now, but for many people it was all relative back then too.

Roz, I apologies if my comments offended or upset you, I was trying in not a very good way by looks of it, give what we have done, I agree that wages have not kept up with house prices and utility bills, I despair how my 2 boys will ever be able to afford to buy a home, with a massive deposit that you need, possible stamp duty, then fees if they go onto uni

I do feel sorry for you, maybe im lucky that my mortage monthly payments are not as high maybe as yours, however lets hope their is a golden sky in the horizon, cant see if coing for a few years yet

I have to find £5k in Oct as just had all new windows

well said seeformiles

The issue about whether people are going to be able to work up to retirement age is a good question. More and more people I know are facing redundancy due to what they believe to be age related factors and what is known as ' runway' ie length of time up to retirement. I know people of 53 -57 who have no job due to redundancy likely to be based on age discrimination rather than capability factors, and no prospect of getting one so they have no choice but to claim JS whilst they continue to search. Final salary pensions sound great but not if you spend your last 10 years of so called working life not being able to get reasonable work.

Its an interesting debate I think and one which needs to be discussed and addressed as it will affect most of us at some point.

Taking on Roz's point on older workers - I moved to London in 2000 because at 50 I could not get an interview for a job in my home town in Melbourne, despite multiple degrees and plenty of experience. I was considered too old and past it. I could not believe the different way I was treated in London. I was offered any number of jobs and could have continued to age 65. Times have clearly changed.
Final salary pensions, even in the governments services, were mostlytaken away from most workers 15-20 years ago in Oz when it was realised that the population was aging and the public purse couldn't afford these type of pensions. Workers had little choice but to change over to a different style of pension or pay double contributions for the rest of their working life. Paying into a work based pension is compulsory in Oz now, but everyone lost huge amounts of equity from their pension funds over the awful economic situation. Those on brink of retirement or retired have had to take on any work they can get or face trying to live on tiny amounts of money. Often both. There is no automatic right to an equivalent to State Pension - as stated before it is subject to stringent asset and income tests. There is no automatic right to free or cheap medicine or health care. The safety net is just that - not a 'right' as it is seen in UK. People are holding onto a job if they can and facing working until they are nearly 70. Of course this relies on people being able to hold on to work, and having good health. There is a largely hidden population of people, often professional single women, who are living lives at retirement age with a lot less than they ever imagined. These same women are often helping with their children and grandchildren as well.

Thanks Wendy for the true insight to living in Aus, as it now appears that it is not all sweetness and light, some thing I think could be said for the USA, we may be having problems here in the UK at presene,however I for one, would rather stay an dlive here than anywhere else, even with the snow/rain/freezing cold weather, remember variety is the spice of life

By the way, the company that I work for has just said they would close our Final Salary pensions in as from 31/3/11, so when I retire I will lose approx £5k per year from that, yet have the option [ which I will take up ] of joing a money purchase one for the next 13-14 years

We may all moan about he UK [ and I will hold my hand up ] yet it probally is still the best place to live

bigot - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

I do not think that anyone in this conversation has made statements that could be described as bigoted, which really is a very strong (and offensive) descriptive. I have found that in general, posters, such as seeformiles and foresthillier have even apologised for basically daring to put forward different opinions or their own experiences.

What a discussion is this turning out to be. What is evident is that prevailing opinion is that children are the sole responsibility of parents. This is expressed here as much as in other mediums and saying ‘someone should not have children if they can’t afford them’ summaries the views quite clearly.

Now, I never imagined that the thread question would give me sleepless nights. After all I waited for 10 years being married before we started our family. We waited because we wanted to be able to be in good financial situation and provide secure home to our offspring and all the opportunities we had as children. As a professional I always thought that staying at home wouldn’t use my capabilities to its best advantage. I also see little wrong in working, as my own mother had full time job while I grew up. In other words I wanted to work once back from maternity leaves.

This is a question? How many children should an average couple be in position to afford?

I look at us and without children we were rather well off. We were also prudent and paid off huge chunks of our mortgage, whilst we had 2 holidays per year. No credit card debt as we always paid off our bills in full by direct debit. All this was managed on two just above average salaries. Two children later meant two years of maternity pay which was supplemented by our savings. Or salaries have increased and we are now 3.5 years into our tightening of belts. Toys / clothes are bought second hand, no holidays or unnecessary purchases; spare room in the house was rented at times. All this effort and we had to twice raise our mortgage to have spare funds for just most basic living. The house we live in is now not affordable to us. We need more than one salary to pay all the bills and the other one is almost all taken by the childcare costs. My fault entirely. All the childcare costs I was expecting were underestimated by power of 2.

Effectively now I am being told that I should have never had my second child as I can’t afford her. I am also advised that I should manage on one salary and should not complain about it as others did manage on less. I am told that I am not that good at budgeting even though I was rather good at it before I had children.

This is my average family having average earnings in average part of London having close to average number of children. Should only rich be allowed to procreate or have more than one child? Do people having twins deserve our sympathy and support?

BTW I found the following quote on moneywise.co.uk
A report by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIECR) has found the next generation will pay £70,000 more in taxes over their lifetime than they will receive in services and benefits. On the other hand, those people who are over 65 now have received £220,000 more in benefits and services than they have paid in taxes.

My guess is that falling birth rate is making the above statement worse. But the situation will not get better if there is prevailing hostile attitude towards families.

Where is the prevailing hostile attitude to families? Did you actually READ my comments and note how I stated that I recognised childcare is expensive and that it isn't wrong to support families.

I have gone to great pains to make this clear. I do however have the right to broaden the discussion and put things into some perspective about what poverty actually DOES mean for many people who have been completely overlooked by the tax and benefit system.

I don't think that meant you, seeformiles but it has been expressed by others. Having gone from having no children to three in a fairly short space of time, unfortunately I can now see both first and second hand what people mean by a 'rotten to mother' culture in the Uk ( replace with parent but its generally meant in respect of women). During pregnancy women are put pedestals and treated with kid gloves generally, but afterwards it seems that mothers can do nothing right and face many obstacles in respect of work etc. Many women, and I have also experienced this, are faced with impossible choices in the workplace as despite supposed protections, many are still prime candidates for dismissal and redundancy due to being part time or being seen as soft targets by employers. It seems to be assumed that mothers will be unreliable, having to go off every 5 minutes to tend to sick children or even just leave. Unlike younger men who can work all hours, they will require a more fixed work pattern in order to balance childcare responsibilities, not untrue but this does not have to impact negatively on productivity or professionalism and in fact many mothers work much harder to compensate, and more possible, more efficiently, as I have observed with others.
They face the ' mommy track' at work as a result. Many are in fact the larger breadwinners and sometimes only breadwinners in their families so this places families overall under undue pressure.

I can why it might not be financially prudent to go on having lots of children assuming its possible but there are some who would prefer seemingly for parents under a certain income not to have any at all.
Life has become phenomenally expensive for all of us. I wrote on another thread about the relative comfort in which I lived when younger being able to afford a mortgage on a fairly average salary. I could hardly buy that flat now on my increased salary as the price has risen disproportionately in relation to my earnings. It used to be the way that you could find someone decent to leave your children with however now childcare has been institutionalised and all childminders need to have certain standards and qualifications. This pushes the price up considerably. As I have written before, such arrangements imposed by government need and should have a degree of subsidy and support if people are to find it affordable whilst they work. I see nothing wrong therefore in accepting tax credits which help with this. I do not see this as scrounging and resent very much someone telling me that I should not have had my children.
I do think however that childcare needs a thorough rethink to encourage lower charges perhaps in the same manner that all education is provided. Currently people pay for the actual costs at the point of use which depends on the location and nature of the business and also local demand. It is extremely hard to get childcare in Forest Hill hence prices are going up. Some nurseries are run by Surestart which allows a greater subsidy but this funding probably won't continue. I can also say for certain that these significant costs do not translate into better wages for nursery staff who still remain barely above the minimum wage however private nannies I know fare better and take home more than teachers! The costs of training, providing cover for unsocial hours ( from 7am and often up to 7pm), registration, materials, insurances and premises costs are expensive particularly costs to expand premises to allow for the EY Curriculum to be delivered.

The other fact is that people are having children later because they don't have the means to own their own home until a much later age than they used to, and don't feel financially secure in their jobs until say their 30s. People therefore will be feeling the squeeze of maternity costs, mortgage costs, and soaring childcare costs at a time when they have less money coming in. That about the height of it really and its why it would be completely impossible to keep the show on the road without having some of our taxes back from the Government at a time when its most needed.

I am for helping families with children if the father is working or is really trying to obtian work.

What I object to is benefit mothers , where no one on the family works or intends to try.

Surely families on benefit should only be receiving child allowance and benefit for first two children. Any more and they are on their own.

Paid work has become a bit of a fetish in our culture. I think there is something to be said for a society in which there are some people under pension age who are not under pressure to earn money but can devote their time to child rearing, 'home making', voluntary work, writing, thinking, painting, gardening, embroidery, woodwork etc.

Mljay - thanks for below

bigot - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

I do not think that anyone in this conversation has made statements that could be described as bigoted, which really is a very strong (and offensive) descriptive. I have found that in general, posters, such as seeformiles and foresthillier have even apologised for basically daring to put forward different opinions or their own experiences.

Yet was it not Roz who on another thread was gloating about living in England and taking us for granted to get back at us for all we did to the Irish

I live on an estate, in town hill town centre.. and I work. I bought my flat and Im a leaseholder.. I can honestly say that work doesnt pay. The council tenants on this estate, who are in the vast majority - get to swan about all day here, smoking weed (not all of them of course, but there is a constant smell of it) and bring up a flock of children in this non working environment which will only encourage it when they grow up. There are some serious problems in this society when people think they can come over here and get a council house and not work with no intention of ever working - yet get flat screen tvs, drive cars (I cant even afford a car) and drag down an area with crime/drug dealing (literally this morning a tenanted flat was rammed in by police). Im fed up to my back teeth of this dole culture! Get to work!!!!

Mini rant over... this morning's event opposite my flat depressed me!

What event this morning

Pools Neighbour
I agree 100 % well said
Why are Governments giving benefits to people who have no intention of working.
They are provided with free housing , free healthcare , free schooling and free everything. It is a disgrace.

With the ones who wont work, then I think I will also have to agree,does make you a bit mad when you get home after an hard day, possibly suffering transport problems en route and you see them sitting around drinking their beer and laughing and having a good time, they claim there are no jobs, then how do all the east europeans and asian people who come here seem to be able to find work very easily ?