I think the biggest problem now is the cost of housing. Time was if a woman did want to stay at home to be with the kids, this was doable on the father's salary.

My father when I was 13 bought a four bedroom house on his salary alone and the house was only £89k. The house today is worth about £400k.

The last time I checked, salaries haven't gone up four times in the last twenty years but housing has. Mortgages really do suck up a lot of people's income these days as well.

Agreed; when I first started on the housing ladder it was still possible for a single person to buy a flat in Forest Hill even though I still had to let out the spare room to help out with bills. It sharply became impossible to do this and I couldn't buy that same flat now even though on a reasonable salary and interest rates are low as the mortgage payments alone would be over half my salary even now.

Having said that having been on that ladder for some time, housing costs are not that extortionate for us, yet we are still struggling considerably especially with crippling childcare costs which are as said before around 50% of our combined salaries and thats still for not full time. I think many governments have tried to address this - we get about 40% back in tax credits however we still have to find over £800 per month. Overall, the costs add up to considerable unaffordability for large sections of the population even those on fairly good incomes, so what is it like for people on lesser salaries? They have no real chance of getting back to work without considerable family support.
The costs themselves however just seem to go up and up relatively speaking. I never found the imposition of the Early Years Curriculum on childminders and nurseries that good an idea overall as I've always said that it effectively means that parents are paying for private education for very young children whereas all they really need is for someone nice and fun to look after their kids whilst they are at work! I'm not saying that its bad per se, just perhaps an unnecessary for a childcare environment for under 3's and someone should surely be looking at precisely why these costs take up such a large proportion of household income.

We are both looking at extending the hours we work to improve our skills and job retention in the longer term, but it will cost us financially to do so until all of our children start school so we really need to think about that carefully before making that decision. Unfortunately all of this and the current proposals to the welfare system does mean unavoidable additional hardship for families with multiples.

£800 can't be 50% of your joint income. I agree completely about the the Early Years curriculum...

You're right it isnt- factor in the Tax Credits I mentioned!

So Roz, you get £400 per month in tax credits ?

Very nice as I get £41, and that will stop in March 2012

My wife stayed at home to look after how 2 children, we survied, so dont see how others cant and yes I have a mortgage and dont earn excessive amounts of money

When we got married in 1972 there was the 'Married Allowance' and 'Child Tax Allowance' against your Income Tax and NO Family Allowance for the first child. None of the the modern allowances, Tax Credits and all the other allowances being talked about in this thread.

Shortly after my son was born in 1973 Married Allowance and Child Tax Allowance were abolished. WE GOT NOTHING!

I wed in 1986 and received married allowance, not sure when it ended, however dont think it was 1973

We then got and still do get, the family allowance for our 2 who are 16 & 10

The child tax credits when it first started was paid to the male, now it is paid to whomever is deemed to be looking after the children

Yes I agree that child care costs are high and we all pay in, so should get some back, plus if people stopped having children, then what future would we have, however to complain about getting in excess of £400 per month does sound a bit silly to me, then again maybe I have it wrong

I am amazed at the tax credits. Apparently under last government incomes of GBP 55 k were getting tax credits.

Why not get rid of all tax credits and help any people in real poverty. When I say real poverty I exclude people who take overseas holidays , have i pods and mobile phones etc.

Poverty is relative, Brian. If nearly everyone else can afford foreign holidays, mobile phones, Ipods, 'etc', and you can't, you're poor.

We like everyone else get tax credits largely as we work part time (full time child care is definitely not an option!)as have three young children and pay 50% of our income on childcare costs in order to enable us to work and pay taxes, NI
Etc. and not be called scroungers. If I didn't work our net monthly income would cover our
Mortgage, council tax, utilities, and leave us with £200 per
Month assuming no unexpected costs arose such as a plumbing leak etc. We would probably be better off on benefits if that were the case. You don't get tax credits for nothing. We are probably about £200 per
Month better off with both of us working than if my partner was the only one at work. At least we are this way able to pay into our pensions and keep our skills alive in the job Market. Glad you all think we are all so well off and that you all clearly ran your finances a lot better but you can take comfort that our credits have already reduced by £130 per month as of April with more to follow. To be honest, I do feel like exploring giving up work as often it seems a lot of grief for little gain in the short term.

In 1972, what was the cost of housing and a mortgage compared to now? Yes, back then people didn't get Tax Credits etc but then housing cost a whole lot less then and people didn't need the "help" that they may need now.

Only £200 left per month, well I dont fair much better as I oly have about £350

Housing was cheaper in 1972, well thats pretty obvious, yet the wages peopel earnt in them days were nowhere like they are now, it stands to reason that housing was cheaper because peoples wages were much lower

Noone asked anyone to have children, if you have them, then why should you expect the state to help brinbg them up

The tax credit system needs a major overhaul. At present if you are without children you can only claim if you work 30 hours a week or more. So we don't 'all' get tax credits - far from it.

The problem is this:

Increasingly work patterns are changing and there is a recognised growing problem of people being stuck in underemployment. ie they cannot find full-time or steady work and are forced to take low wage/part time jobs under 30 hours a week and consequently do NOT qualify for tax credits.

They are who the Joseph Rowntree Foundation identified (amongst others) as the hidden poor. People stuck below the breadline but who fall through all the gaps in the tax and benefit system. These people are struggling badly - I know because I work with them through my job and I was in the same position myself not long ago. I'm currently in a very tenuous position and could fall into this trap myself again very easily.

It's not just people with children who struggle - at least there is a recognised system of tax credits and benefits to assist families. I'm not saying that's wrong - but there is also a very real problem of poverty amongst single people trying to survive on low part time wages because it's all they can get, and because they don't want to go on Jobseeker's Allowance.

To true seeformiles, i know someone who falls into that

Wish I knew the answers to this, as I expect we all do

I feel for all who are struggling at present, but believe me, happier days will arrive

I do recall when interest rates hit 15% and my wife was workimg, after paying all the bills for mortgage, food etc, all I had left from my months wages was £13

Yep. I'm not knocking families, I understand childcare is expensive, but it sounds like some people DO receive substantial help towards it. Ok it's not perfect, and yes they'd probably like more help. But should the state pay for the whole cost of childcare anyway?

Where is the dividing line between individual and state responsibility?
ForestHillier I agree it's an imperfect system and like you, I've seen these things go in cycles and hope things get better soon.
It also comes back to the definition of what poverty is.

Also, I'm not talking about anyone here, but I have met people who are quite snobby about the idea of state benefits, but who are more than happy to receive significant sums through the tax credit system. It's just a benefit by another name. It does make me laugh.

I do so agree.
Tax credits are benefits . What else could we be.
Probably half the country plus on benefits. How on earth is this funded?

I do believe in hindsight that New Labour did make it far to easy to get benefits and just dished out the money as if there was no tomorrow, maybe thats why the UK is now millions in debt

I won't rise to the bait in respect of the comment about how why I have three children if I can't afford it but will say three things;
1)My children will be working their butts off to keep you in a pension.
You might want to remember that before
questioning their right to exist in the first place. They won't have free university education like most people had and will have to work harder and longer just to keep a basic standard of living.
2) I have never expected the state to subsidise my family but I do object to my family subsidising the state just so that we can have the privilege of working and of subsidising the delivery of an early years curriculum for young babies. My partner and I are therefore paying to work. But then you'd call us scroungers if we didn't, so we can't win.
3) I'd better not say no. 3, just assume an expletive against the uninformed diatribes from the bigoted.

People get tax credits that are based on income, childcare costs and number of children. As someone who has paid and who pays tax, I see this as simply getting back what I have paid in, at a time when it's particularly challenging financially. This thread is about the costs and benefits of working rather than not working, and overall most of us do struggle on and work even if financially we operate at barely breakeven.

I wasn't personalising the argument Roz.

I wouldn't question for a minute your contributions, but you're hardly alone in that respect. Isn't that what tax and national insurance is all about? We pay in for as long as we can in the hope society will support us one day. It's a balance.

I do resent the suggestion that your kids are somehow going to single-handedly prop up society when they start working. Don't the people paying tax now matter too?

I like many others have made my own pension arrangements anyway.

As it happens I have been paying tax and national insurance for 20 years until redundancy forced me to survive on whatever work I could find - temporary, part time or otherwise. I've done everything possible to stay off benefits but I still seem to fall through every gap there is - and there are loads more people like me.

I do feel the tax credit system has been very ill-conceived and there are many who have been forgotten and made worse off by successive governments. At least the increase in the personal allowance will help some of them.

And we're going to have a range of perspectives on here - we can't all think the same.

I've just reviewed the comments - I don't think anything's been said that justifies accusing people of bigotry.

I've made an effort to substantiate what I'm saying. I also have professional and first-hand experience to draw on.

And I'm certainly not trying to attack anyone. My opinion is no less valid than yours - it just happens to provide a different perspective on the discussion.