SE23.com - The Official Forum for Forest Hill & Honor Oak, London SE23
Online since 2002   11,000+ members   72,000+ posts

Home | SE23 Topics | Businesses & Services | Wider Topics | Offered/Wanted/Lost/Found | About SE23.com | Advertising | Contact | |
 Armstrong & Co Solicitors



Post Reply  Post Topic 
Pages (30): « First < Previous 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 Next > Last »
English Usage
Author Message
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #261
11-03-2013 01:04 PM

According to the OED, the use of 'so' as an 'introductory particle' is not new. 'So, let me see: my apron' (1602) . It is said to be common in Shakespeare's plays, though the OED gives no examples.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #262
11-03-2013 01:14 PM

Hmm interesting point. I suppose the Vonnegut usage is an Introductory Particle then.

Am not sure about the Irish phrasing though. Its purpose is probably the same but is it introductory? It is still a matter of style though, so it is. Also heard in 'Alright, so'.

Regardless, I agree it is certainly not new.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Erekose


Posts: 557
Joined: May 2010
Post: #263
11-03-2013 02:49 PM

So fashion has brought it around again and with any luck will see it drop from common usage again in the near future.
It was put to me earlier that it is a more positive opening in reply to a question than say 'It seems to me' or 'In my opinion' and may be part of a learned interview technique.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
michael


Posts: 3,260
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #264
11-03-2013 04:23 PM

I think 'so' has really replaced the terribly old fashioned 'thus', but I'm no expert and assumed that an Introductory Particle was some form of boson, hadron, or lepton.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #265
11-03-2013 04:45 PM

If you listen to conversation, most people prefix their opening remarks with a warm-up phrase. It gets people's attention before the speaker gets to what they actually want to say. 'So' is just another type of opening gambit. They probably change over time, and current usage is the current fashion. Doesn't bovver me much.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #266
11-03-2013 04:53 PM

Quote:
It was put to me earlier that it is a more positive opening in reply to a question than say 'It seems to me' or 'In my opinion' and may be part of a learned interview technique.


Can't quite envisage what circumstances that would apply to, Erekose. Can you give an example?

Indeed, I'd have thought that, at any rate in the context of an argument - and I think this is the criticism my wife was making of my own use of the word - 'so' can sometimes sound arrogant and patronizing. It can seem to imply that one's interlocutor is as thick as two short planks and just can't recognize one's own inexorable logic. 'QED. So you're wrong. (So there.)' 'It seems to me that you may be wrong' is more likely to make you popular with your friends, I'd have thought.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #267
11-03-2013 05:13 PM

It doesn't bother me either but am intrigued as to what it is exactly that bothers others.

There are multiple different uses being quoted here. The usage of 'so' as part of a warm up phrase as rshdunlop refers to it is what I assumed was also an Introductory Particle, though I must admit that was a new one for me.

The example of 'So you're wrong' is, as michael says another way of saying thus or therefore. This is surely old as the trees and not a new thing at all.

I had also offered a few examples that I know of where 'so' is used conversationally, not necessarily as a warmup. So, does anyone have an example of this new usage?

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Erekose


Posts: 557
Joined: May 2010
Post: #268
11-03-2013 08:18 PM

Because it tries to lend weight to the following statement in a way that other openings do not? I think the contributor above may have hit upon what annoys me about it when he notes that that it can imply arrogance in away that 'it seems to me' or 'in my opinion' doesn't.
I can't say that I have noticed its use in this way outside of interviews / contributions to radio debates.....mostly by politicians.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #269
14-03-2013 03:12 PM

'The Prime Minister rang myself and Nick Clegg this morning...' (Ed Miliband on the BBC this lunchtime). What's wrong with '...me and Nick Clegg'?

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #270
14-03-2013 03:22 PM

Now, I do dislike this use of 'myself'. I think it started with officials trying to sound more official and mangling the language in the process.

'Myself' should be used for emphasis, such as: 'I bought this for myself.' You could say 'I bought this for me.' but that doesn't have quite the same emphasis and is also less smooth when spoken aloud.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #271
14-03-2013 03:52 PM

I remember a tour guide who used to do the same thing with 'you' - 'if any of yourselves would like to visit the gift shop...'. I assumed at the time that she thought 'you' would sound a bit abrupt and rude.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #272
21-03-2013 12:45 PM

Like his predecessor, the Chancellor seems to think 'pence' is singular - 'one pence' off beer. Why is this? What's wrong with 'one penny'?

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #273
21-03-2013 01:20 PM

Yes you are correct but am not really sure how this matters. At least he taking the 'one pence' off the beer that Brown put on (he said it too).

Reminds me of testicles. I think lots of people use this in preference to testes so as not to look a bit of an a*** - also sounds better in most instances and this could be the link here.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #274
21-03-2013 01:34 PM

It depends what you mean by 'matters.' It's linguistically interesting (and, to linguistic conservatives like me, rather irritating), that's all I'm saying.

Don't understand your point about testicles, lacb. According to my dictionary, 'testicles' is the standard (polite) word in English, first attested in 1425. The first recorded use of 'testes' (plural) is in a technical dictionary of 1704, where the word is defined as 'the Testicles of a Male.'

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #275
21-03-2013 01:45 PM

Well I stand corrected on my testicles. That sounds painful but I think you get my drift. I was clearly wrong thinking that testes was the medically correct plural.

I suppose my point was really about getting a message across and there are lots of examples of strict misuse with currency. Think how often news refers to the (Chinese) Yuan as a currency for instance.

I can well imagine how pence could creep in from a spreadsheet of figures - the word to use if you assume all the figures are plural - may well account for its use by Chancellors.

Am slightly amused, given the thread title, by the automatically censored word, used by Chaucer, in my previous post.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #276
21-03-2013 03:11 PM

I would guess that 'testes' is indeed more common in a medical context than in everyday use.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #277
06-05-2013 02:33 PM

'On the weekend' instead of 'at the weekend.' My wife told me she'd noticed several examples of this; I spotted it myself this lunchtime. A quick Google suggests it's yet another immigrant from across the Atlantic.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
steveb


Posts: 113
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #278
08-05-2013 09:38 AM

Quote:
'The Prime Minister rang myself and Nick Clegg this morning...' (Ed Miliband on the BBC this lunchtime). What's wrong with '...me and Nick Clegg'?


Shouldn't that be "...Nick Clegg and I"?

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #279
08-05-2013 10:04 AM

I suppose 'Nick Clegg and me' - putting oneself second - would be slightly more polite. But, as it's the object rather than the subject of the verb 'rang', it's got to be 'me' not 'I', hasn't it?

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #280
08-05-2013 01:33 PM

My mother, who was a stickler for 'correct' grammar taugh me a simpe, way to check this - simply take the other person out of the sentence and see what sounds right. So, if I said that someone rang 'Nick Clegg and me', I take Nick Clegg out of the sentence and test it: someone rang me or someone rang I?

It's very clear which is right.

Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

Friends of Blythe Hill Fields