"my and my childrens right to travel"
"those passengers preventing my children from getting on the bus"

If that's YOUR attitude Roz I'm really not surprised at the reaction you get from some people. Let's remember those people already on the bus have paid their fares and have just as much right to travel as you and your children do, and their reason for being on the bus is probably just as important to them as is yours.

Its a good job you are obviously not old enough to have been a bus user in the days of the Routemaster. There wasn't room for any sort of pushchair/buggy on those and if you didn't have something small enough to fold and put under the stairs - with the conductors permission - you didn't use the bus, you walked.

Thanks NewForrester

Good info. Hopefully it will help people direct their access complaints to the service providers.

Hmm. So Roz's rights trump those of wheelchair users and damn the rest of you.

Glad we got that clear.

Roz didn't say that. In fact I specifically didn't and don't believe that the rights- of my children not I- trump those of wheelchair users but with a double buggy I would have to, like a lot of people, make a judgement on whether it is appropriate or practical for me to take them all off the bus- also having paid a fare- ( however I do appreciate that my three children with their free travel and cumbersome carriages are clearly leeches on the rest of society).

I also never suggested that they all get off to allow us on- just to shift along peacefully to permit my children to access the designated buggy/wheelchair space.

Yes not a very Christian attitude Roz.
I appreciate that it cannot be easy with 3 children in tow but other bus passengers have needs as well and are probably paying a higher contribution to their journey than someone with a double push chair and another child in tow.
Surely pushchair users should alight the bus if a wheelchair user needs the space , unless they can fold their large chairs and fit into rest of the Bus.

Perhaps others would feel more accommodating to push chair users if they paid a fare . Say GBP 1.00 for single and GBP 2.00 for double.

to quoate Roz's message.

"If a wheelchair user tries to get on subsequently, I will decide whether we can realistically get off and walk the rest of the way. That will depend on the distance and whether I think my toddler is up to it. If not, then we are staying put. Folding up a double buggy with three young children is not possible at all. I expect therefore that my children get priority status in that context. Its tough on the subsequent wheelchair user but other than not attempt to use public transport at all, theres no other solution. And I'm not prepared to stop doing it, despite the uproar and outraged facial expressions that might ensue."

Very sad.

If I take my daughter in my car, she has to be strapped down in a special seat and cannot move from the seat to be comforted or fed without stopping the car.

If I travel by bus I am expected to balance her on my knee with little protection for her against sudden movements from the bus or other passengers. On the rare occasions that I take her on a bus I would far prefer her to be strapped into a buggy which I can park and hold while the bus goes round corners and brakes sharply for other road users.

Passengers on buses should expect to travel as safely as those in cars or aeroplanes, both of which have strict rules about seat belts, and babies should not be excluded from safe travel on public transport.

Should I have to pay more for my daughter to go on a bus than all the over 60s who get free travel? I don't think so.

Very sad indeed.
The attitude of parents can be so wrong. They wait and let busses pass by because they can’t always get on the first one. When they get on, they irritate others by going to the area provided for them. Would you prefer them to stay in the passage behind the driver or head upstairs? If the bus is so full, parents may feel they don’t have enough room in order to fold the buggy in the first place. They are not allowed to point out their needs to others without causing an offence.

We all face different pressures. Being a parent with a child on public transport is not always without various pressures. Even more so the more children are present. A child may be tired or hungry and that can be as much of a pressure as anyone else including parents who are returning home from hard day's work or going to anywhere when arrival time is important.

Parents don’t pay for the children or buggies to be transported. Why is this in the discussion? (Senior citizens, Oyster PAYG after 4th bus journey and others who enjoy this perk don’t pay either)

Very sad was meant to be a reflection to the Post of Roaz who seemed to be saying she would not remove her pushchair to enable a wheel chair user to get on the Bus.

It is also sad that you can’t see where Roz is coming from too.

In all the time I have used the busses I have seen many buggies and not once a wheelchair. (I commuted to work by bus for some 4 years.)

Roz,
would you please tell us how often do you miss a bus because you can't get on with your children?

I do symphasize with all mothers with children with regards to public transport
but also symphasize more with wheel chaired persons.

I can recall at least 5 or 6 occasions I have seen a wheel chair enter a bus by the middle door. The driver lowers the floor.

I gather that everyone would prefer me or someone in my situation to get off a bus and walk what could be 3/4 miles home with a heavy buggy and a toddler who probably can't walk that far anyway. I am sorry about not being Christian enough to sacrifce my childs best interest but I'm not Christian so that probably explains my lack of morality.

I forgot to mention the furore that usually accompanies the ' folding of the buggy' ie tut tutting, head shaking, ( I travel on London buses without a buggy for work so see this every day) so it seems that parents/carers can't win.

Thanks for asking; I've had to miss loads of buses; its usually because there is already the full quota of buggies on there which is fair dos but actually quite often because passengers refuse to move down a little and out of the buggy space. I watch, almost on a daily basis , at a bus stop in Brixton, when parents with single buggies have difficulty getting on either the 35 or 45 buses to Peckham from Brixton, even when they are clearly first in the queue. Everyone else just piles on and barges buggies out of the way. I could recount dozens of examples where I have been trying to board a bus with a single buggy and as the door opens someone else just barges on. This is most parents experience of London transport.

My view is similar to the Ryanair view- remove most of the seats to enable more young children and wheelchair users to board with seats mainly reserved for the elderly and infirm. And pregnant women of course. As its probably the last chance they'll have to sit down and enjoy people being polite to them before the 'rotten to mother' culture kicks in.....

So we now all agree that is not easy being a parent with children on busses.

I see no wrong for Roz staying on a bus even if a wheel chaired person had to wait for another one.

I resent that limited space in the buses is somehow only burden on parents with buggies, where it is inadequate provision of transport opportunities for all.

Why do parents have to miss so many buses on their journeys? I guess that people in wheelchairs face similar predicament too but this thread was about a parent with a buggy.

Even without buggy or child it's often hard to get politely past the block of passengers between the driver and the wheelchair / buggy area to the empty (empty!) seats at the back of the bus, so I can understand that a mother with children might not be able to deploy scrupulously fair and understanding reasoning with other passengers as she tries to get past.

It's really quite dangerous, putting a toddler somewhere you hope it will remain stable, while the bus takes off and you fold the buggy. So while they ought to fold them, I can't really criticise other parents for leaving them unfolded. Happily, I find it a challenge. It's the nearest I come to the developing world gap year experience, and it makes me proud of my little nippers as they hold on grimly to the greasy yellow pole.

Wheelchair users are probably a rare sight because getting on is such a discouraging problem. They do have priority. Again, if it ever happened to me I'd probably enjoy the challenge moving everyone else out of the way so we can get off, but it might become less fun in time, and it's hardly safe with toddlers.

To get back to the start of the thread. You hope drivers could exercise their judgement, but often they can't, or they have given up, or else they're told not to. What the buses need are conductors, or more passenger co-operation. A while ago I was on a bus (without my children) and the driver was refusing to allow another buggy on. There was plenty of space so I smiled at a few (people I took to be) parents and rearranged the buggies myself. The driver accepted my lying reassurance that all the buggies were folded (he couldn't really see anyway) and off we went.

Lastly, about paying for buggies and children. The buses are a public service, and service priorities are determined largely by politicians we, the public, elect. No mayoral or council candidate could stand on a 'make babies pay' policy now and get in. Having babies is still a common human concern and voting is one of the few things we parents still have the opportunity for on sunny May evenings.

I was on a 176 this afternoon travelling to East Dulwich and I couldn't get off at the exit door thanks to a driver letting on a third buggy who was in the gangway between the doors. The parent said to me "You'll have to go out the front door mate" thanks to the Arriva London driver having no care about how many of the buggies were already in the wheelchair part of the bus.

The other day, I was on a 185 when a parent with an oversized double buggy came on the bus through the double doors at the back which led to a logistical nightmare for the other parent with the smaller buggy to squeeze in.

Last weekend, there were 3 buggies waiting to board the 356 at Bell Green Sainsburys, the two middle class mums asked the 3rd parent with the smaller and more practical buggy to fold hers up, so they could wheel their little darlings on the bus.

These vehicles were designed to accommodate disabled passengers, not parents who as little as 10 years ago managed to fold up pushchairs with the little one on their other arm to get on a bus.

I sympathise rbmartin as your life really sounds hellish right now. I hope 2011 brings you better bus fortunes, and perhaps someone will buy you a car for Xmas.

Roz, that was uncalled for and frankly downright rude.

As a single person, rbmartin is making the right choice by taking the bus.

Have you considered, with your large tribe and the difficulties you complain so bitterly about in going by bus, perhaps you should get a car for Christmas and give the rest of us a break from both your complaints and your blocking of room in the bus?

Roz, as a parent with two young children I do have some sympathy with you however the next time you are on a bus take not of the wording which gives wheelchair users preference over buggies. Waiting 5 or 10 minutes with your children is a damb site easier than a life in a wheelchair.

If we all used common sense life would be so much easier.

Relax, take it easy, enjoy the passing parade. Another bus will be along soon.[/align]