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Trains to/from Forest Hill and Honor Oak Park
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rbmartin


Posts: 1,074
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #441
24-09-2009 12:14 PM

From the Sydenham Town website, although the info is about their station, most of the info should be relevant to FH and HOP.

http://sydenham.org.uk/news_railway_09_09.html

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nasaroc


Posts: 144
Joined: Jun 2005
Post: #442
24-09-2009 12:35 PM

No - what went on last weekend was, what the TFL PR woman at the meeting on the 17th, charmingly termed "brand neutralisation" i.e. removing the Southern brand name from noticeboards, ticket offices etc. We were told that the entire "rebranding" exercise would take place between now and the end of 2010.

I think anyone looking for huge differerences to local stations and the way that they are run now TfL are in charge are going to be disappointed. Staffing of stations in the late evenings - and that doesn't mean that the ticket offices are going to be open at the same time - and the addition of some additional cctv monitors, repainting and rebranding is about as far as the TfL budget is going to stretch unfortunately.

Most ticketing problems will only begin to be ironed out, in my view, when full Oystercard operation begins on 2nd January 2010. Most people, if they've got any sense, will then swap to PAYG or buy an annual season ticket so they don't have to brave station ticket facilities. No good if you require a weekly or monthly season ticket, I know, but that's the way we're heading.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #443
24-09-2009 12:36 PM

Thanks to everybody who has already signed the petition for no cuts to rail services - http://nototraincuts.notlong.com

This evening the petition so far will be presented to Lewisham Council. With 685 signatures in less than a week this begins to demonstrates the feeling of local people. We will keep on collecting signatures beyond today show that more people have the opportunity to show their dissatisfaction to the rail authorities.

With regards to stations and Oyster, as well as the notes from last weeks meeting, the Forest Hill Society will have a representative from TfL speaking at our AGM on 15th October. Please come along if you want to ask questions about the facilities at the station and the running of the East London Line. Unfortunately they cannot be held responsible for the cuts to Southern Services but it should still be an interesting meeting with the focus on Honor Oak Park and Forest Hill Stations.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #444
25-09-2009 06:56 AM

At last night's council meeting the first 700 signatures on the petition were handed to the mayor on our behalf by Councillor Feakes.

Councillor Paschoud had asked a written question about train services and the deputy mayor confirmed that the mayor had written to Southern, Network Rail, and London TravelWatch about this issue, and that they, along with Jim Dowd and Joan Ruddock are lobbying on this issue.

Councillor Walton proposed the motion about cuts to services, which had an amendment accepted from Councillor Hall complaining about cuts to the Bellingham to Victoria service as well. The motion was passed unanimously with all party support.

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Foresters


Posts: 212
Joined: May 2006
Post: #445
25-09-2009 07:36 AM

I couldn't make it to the meeting as Id planned.
Was it well attended?

Was the Charing Cross issue discussed?

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #446
25-09-2009 09:45 AM

Charing Cross was definately discussed.
There were not a lot of us in the public gallery and for a meeting that lasted until 10pm (when the motion was finally voted on) I think everybody who stayed away made the right decision!

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Alan Hall


Posts: 1
Joined: Sep 2009
Post: #447
25-09-2009 01:57 PM

I wanted to make sure Lewisham Labour Group's position on the train services is clear:

In my letter, I do say:

"Lewisham Labour Group welcome these improvements but is also lobbying to ensure other services do not suffer as a result"

Last night, I tabled a friendly amendment to a motion at the Council meeting to include supporting a Victoria to Bellingham service if the South London Line loop is discontinued. And, as it was a friendly amendment which was accepted, voted for the call to lobby about London Bridge and Charing Cross services too. All passed nem con.

The Mayor had already written to Southern etc... on 22nd September 2009.

However, I still believe the East London Line Extension phase 1 and later phase 2 to Clapham Junction will be a great improvement for residents of Forest Hill and Sydenham. And, as we all know, better transport[/i][/b] links should lead to a better local economy - very welcome news at this time.....

Regards

Cllr Alan Hall

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Foresters


Posts: 212
Joined: May 2006
Post: #448
25-09-2009 02:19 PM

Regarding the re-zoning of Shoreditch station from 2 to 1

Boris Johnson (Con) wrote:
I am afraid this will not be possible. The general rule applied by the Travelcard and PAYG is that the fare due always reflects the zones travelled through. This applies for example to customers travelling on the Tube today from say Camden Town to Whitechapel.

tfl website wrote:
We're extending the East London line... The line will form part of the wider London Overground orbital network, which will allow you to travel around London by train without having to enter central London.

(my emphasis) ...Hmm

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #449
25-09-2009 02:22 PM

Alan,
Many thanks for your support for passengers on this issue.

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roadie


Posts: 17
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #450
25-09-2009 02:58 PM

From London Reconnections - a freedom of information request:
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/

I'm not sure if the information within here is still relevant - sorry for the long post: The implication is that a local fare will apply between stations straddling Shoreditch: although not being a transport geek, I don't know whether this will be as similarly high as a normal zone 1 journey.

---------------copied from http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/
Friday, 3 july 2009

An East London Line FOI Request
Reader Mike has been kind enough to pass on the results of an FOI request made with regards to the East London Line. TfL's reply includes answers to various questions pertaining to the Zone 1 status of Shoreditch High Street and the decision-making leading up to the South London Line cuts, and thus the entire response is reprinted below.

1) Can you confirm that Hoxton and Whitechapel, the two stations that will be on either side of Shoreditch High Street, will remain Zone 2 stations?

We can confirm that Shoreditch High Street Station will be in Zone 1 and that Whitechapel and Hoxton Stations will be in Zone 2.

2) Would a London Overground journey on the East London Railway between Hoxton and Whitechapel be classed as a journey undertaken wholly in Zone 2, or would a passenger be charged for travelling through but not alighting in Zone 1, as is the practice on a London Underground journey?

TfL will be offering a local fare for passengers travelling between Dalston Junction and Wapping. Therefore passengers travelling between these stations will pay a fare as if they were travelling through one zone, and not two zones, including zone 1.

3) What, if any, steps have been taken by TfL to ensure that a north-south journey on London Overground's East London extension is not charged in similar fashion to, for example, a First Capital Connect journey between Kentish Town and Elephant and Castle?

Please see above.

4) The zone classification of Shoreditch High Street is a condition of the funding deal that was set out by the Secretary of State for Transport. Can you send me a copy of this funding deal?

The document you have requested contains sensitive information concerning many other issues which bare no relation to your request. Due to this fact we are unable to disclose the full document, however we have extracted the section from this document where the Secretary of State for Transport advises of issues concerning the East London Line, which you will find
below:
EAST LONDON LINE

First of all can I reiterate that, to support a project TfL price at ?75m, I am already prepared to offer ?24m from savings that might accrue in other areas, I am also prepared to support an application by TfL to the ORR for ?19m of RAB funding, the cost of which will come from the
Department over the longer term. Against that background, you invited me to 'split the difference' of the remaining ?32m.

I am sympathetic, but there are some things to be clear on.

Should the scheme proceed, cost and delivery risk associated with the project (including cost overruns) would be yours, not mine. That includes the risk that the ORR do not accept that the scheme should, in part, be RAB funded. The Surrey Canal Road Station must be included.

In addition

TfL will need to confirm that the new Shoreditch High Street is in Zone 1 - this reduces the revenue loss on South Central services as a result of the new East London Line, and is the reason why I can expect to make savings as high as ?24m.
It will be necessary for you to propose the withdrawal of the South London Line (and the service to Bellingham) and the reduction of service between Denmark Hill / Peckham Rye and Victoria including informing all MPs on the corridor of this change; and, should this closure not proceed, I would be unable to grant the ?24m savings to put towards the scheme.
TfL must guarantee that no East London Line services will serve London Victoria (if they did the ?24m offer would be significantly reduced).

Should the scheme proceed, there are also a number of other minor issues relating to Phase 2b and Phase 1 of the project on which officials need to reach agreement. Early dialogue on these would be helpful.

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nasaroc


Posts: 144
Joined: Jun 2005
Post: #451
28-09-2009 09:53 AM

What this simply means is, if you travel to or through Shoreditch High Street on the new ELL, you will be charged as if you have travelled into a zone 1 area. In other words the fare will be the same as if you had travelled from FH to LB using the ELL or Southern.

When the rail authorities decided to sneakily redesignate SHS as Zone 1 (rather than Zone 2 as it used to be) a few months ago, the ELL publicity department had a great deal of the wind blown out of their sails. Up until then, they had merrily talked of how much cheaper it would be to use the ELL and how this line was an "orbital motorway" allowing south London to connect with north London etc. It's an orbital motorway alright, but one where you pay the central London congestion charges! Someone's got to pay for the hole in TfL's budget, I suppose, and this is one way of helping to do just that.

However, it will still be cheaper to travel to Canary Wharf and areas to the east from FH (via Canada Water) since this does not mean travelling through any stations in Zone 1.

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Foresters


Posts: 212
Joined: May 2006
Post: #452
28-09-2009 10:16 AM

nasaroc,

I had interpreted the 'please see above' response to question 3 as implying there would be through - not zone 1 - fares, but closer inspection suggests 'please see above' refers to just Dalston Junction and Wapping. If so, that's a pretty opaque response to an FOI request. Is that how you see it?

The rest of the conversation with the Sec of State I find fascinating, as it reveals the wheeler dealer and chummy nature of the negotiations.

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,074
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #453
28-09-2009 02:17 PM

So thanks to TfL's shortfall, we're going to have to pay the same price to travel to parts of East London as if you were going via London Bridge. Great! Thumbdown

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PVP


Posts: 271
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #454
29-09-2009 10:45 AM

Why not designate the station as being on the cusp of zones 1 and 2, e.g. as per Vauxhall?

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,074
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #455
29-09-2009 10:50 AM

Unlike Vauxhall which has Pimlico in Zone 1 and Stockwell in Zone 2 either side, the East London Line stations next to Shoreditch High Street on either side are in Zone 2.

The decision to move Shoreditch to Zone 1 is purely to make money from South Londoners using the new route.

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Gaz


Posts: 86
Joined: Jul 2008
Post: #456
29-09-2009 11:46 AM

I'm not sure that people are interpreting the London Reconnections statement correctly?

It seems quite clear to me that they are saying Shoreditch High Street will be Zone 1 for entry/exit purposes but will be Zone 2 for through-passage.

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Foresters


Posts: 212
Joined: May 2006
Post: #457
29-09-2009 11:58 AM

That's what I thought on first reading, but it actually says 'TfL will be offering a local fare for passengers travelling between Dalston Junction and Wapping' which implies to me not from Rotherhithe and beyond.

So not exactly 100% clear

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #458
29-09-2009 12:34 PM

Please bear in mind that the statement from Boris a couple of weeks ago is more recent than communications from July. Back in July is was thought that the rezoning of Shoreditch would not effect through journeys (for all those people from Dalston flocking to Forest Hill), but since then it has become clear that all travel through Shoreditch will be counted the same as if you had crossed central London, zone 1.

It is wonderful to hear that TfL are so concerned about potential loss of revenue for Southern Trains, the company that will be charging the same for season tickets from December and May despite cutting our services during the evening peak, daytime off-peak, and evening services from Charing Cross. Why can't the rail authorities think for once about what would be best for passengers rather than most profitable?

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Gaz


Posts: 86
Joined: Jul 2008
Post: #459
29-09-2009 02:11 PM

My annual season ticket comes up for renewal in December. Currently I have a z1-3 travelcard (at around ?1200) - just had a look on tfl.gov.uk and a z2-3 travelcard is around half of the that price! I never realised the difference was so marked.

I'm thinking that if Southern are cutting my service to LB, W'Loo and CHX I may as well just use the ELL to get to work and pay the extension if I should wish to travel into town. Not a bad option for me as I work near Tower Hill so can get a ELL and walk from Shadwell - and I'm sure that the tube extension charge (that I'll use during the evenings and weekends) will be nowhere near the extra ?600 for a z1 pass (esp as it's increasingly the good old 176 bus I get back from town in the evenings!).

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,074
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #460
29-09-2009 03:24 PM

Bar the new through connections to Canada Water (Jubilee) and Whitechapel (District and Hammersmith & City) that we'll have next year, we won't experience anything special until the ELL is extended to Highbury and Islington in 2011. Then we'll be able to use the Victoria Line, or the overground services to Richmond via Willesden Junction or the First Capital Connect services to Moorgate and into Hertfordshire.

If we don't have to pay to travel through zone 1 at Shoreditch, those journeys will be much cheaper

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