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Anyone know about local planning permission in the area.
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nasaroc


Posts: 144
Joined: Jun 2005
Post: #21
22-01-2008 07:31 PM

Looking at Lewisham?s online list of planning applications I can see that the developer, having got permission for conversion into five flats, came back for a second bite and got a further permission for two in the basement. The Design and Access statement in the documents relating to the second permission can be seen at this link: http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XSL...mkey=50682 The developer supports his second application with the statement: ?Due to the size of the property ? we are proposing to add an additional two flats to the basement ?? as though he had not noticed the size of the property in the first place! In one sense it?s great that this whole enterprise has come crashing around his head, but his attempt to turn an elegant Victorian villa into a rabbit warren has led to blight for residents of Church Rise and the loss of a beautiful building.

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BarCar


Posts: 293
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #22
22-01-2008 07:54 PM

nasaroc Wrote:
In one sense it?s great that this whole enterprise has come crashing around his head

A cynic might suggest that they always intended the building to come down so that they can build a high density modern block. "Oops, it's unsafe and we need to demolish it" smells a bit like "Oops, it caught fire" to me. I hope Lewisham planners have the legislative power to force them to reinstate like-for-like (externally at least) but it sounds like the developers know how to play the system to their best effect.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #23
22-01-2008 09:56 PM

BarCar Wrote:

nasaroc Wrote:
In one sense it?s great that this whole enterprise has come crashing around his head

A cynic might suggest that they always intended the building to come down so that they can build a high density modern block. "Oops, it's unsafe and we need to demolish it" smells a bit like "Oops, it caught fire" to me. I hope Lewisham planners have the legislative power to force them to reinstate like-for-like (externally at least) but it sounds like the developers know how to play the system to their best effect.


Comments have been made to support the cynical view, but I will leave it there for now.
However im pretty sure Lewisham will do as you say and force like for like. I will certainly be opposing permission for anything else. Im sure other locals will do the same.

Sadly the idea that its fallen apart around them. They are still left with a huge plot of prime land sadly.
And have a lot of work in the pipelines again elsewhere, so far from broke.
The are actually responsible for the conversion of 10 Church Rise too!

Nasaroc, thanks for doing that digging, its certainly nice to see such information, so I can compare the verbal comments of the builders, and the official line taken with the authorities.
Venturing out this afternoon I noticed its almost gone now.

I miss 6 Church Rise already Sad
Just the left and right walls and a few other bits left now, all ground floor.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #24
22-01-2008 10:03 PM

nasaroc Wrote:
Looking at Lewisham?s online list of planning applications I can see that the developer, having got permission for conversion into five flats, came back for a second bite and got a further permission for two in the basement. The Design and Access statement in the documents relating to the second permission can be seen at this link: http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XSL...mkey=50682 The developer supports his second application with the statement: ?Due to the size of the property ? we are proposing to add an additional two flats to the basement ?? as though he had not noticed the size of the property in the first place! In one sense it?s great that this whole enterprise has come crashing around his head, but his attempt to turn an elegant Victorian villa into a rabbit warren has led to blight for residents of Church Rise and the loss of a beautiful building.


Just reading through that link I just wanted to clarify something with people in the know.

When this permission was applied for, should another yellow notice have been posted for all to see and oppose?

Quite ironic actually that the planning permission was applied for AFTER I called the council concerned at the amount of earth coming out. The guy who visited said they were told NOT to touch the basement, and then the permission was finally granted....on the 30th August, however the house started to collapse on the 21st August and was condemned a a few days later...

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BarCar


Posts: 293
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #25
22-01-2008 10:59 PM

Snazy Wrote:
Quite ironic actually that the planning permission was applied for AFTER I called the council concerned at the amount of earth coming out.

I don't know if Lewisham is the same as Lambeth in terms of planning but people in the area we just moved from went through something similar.

It appears that a builder can basically do what they like inside a property (e.g. carve it into 10 flats) and they don't need to apply for planning permission (until they are done) so long as they don't cross certain lines (e.g. extensions, changes to external appearance).

It is only when the conversion is complete that a "substantive change of use" has occurred which is a breech of planning (if they don't have permission in place). It seems to be routine for developers to do a lot of the conversion work before they even begin the planning application process so that neighbours are stuck with a predetermined fate due to lack of planning enforcement resources/will to fight developers/will to evict new tenants in an illegal development.

Digging out foundations is probably a building control issue which is another matter.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #26
22-01-2008 11:01 PM

BarCar Wrote:

Snazy Wrote:
Quite ironic actually that the planning permission was applied for AFTER I called the council concerned at the amount of earth coming out.

I don't know if Lewisham is the same as Lambeth in terms of planning but people in the area we just moved from went through something similar.

It appears that a builder can basically do what they like inside a property (e.g. carve it into 10 flats) and they don't need to apply for planning permission (until they are done) so long as they don't cross certain lines (e.g. extensions, changes to external appearance).

It is only when the conversion is complete that a "substantive change of use" has occurred which is a breech of planning (if they don't have permission in place). It seems to be routine for developers to do a lot of the conversion work before they even begin the planning application process so that neighbours are stuck with a predetermined fate due to lack of planning enforcement resources/will to fight developers/will to evict new tenants in an illegal development.

Digging out foundations is probably a building control issue which is another matter.



OK thanks Smile
All a maze eh, no wonder builders get away with so much. The guy who came round in July was building control. And said it was NOT allowed... departments just dont talk do they lol

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nasaroc


Posts: 144
Joined: Jun 2005
Post: #27
23-01-2008 10:35 AM

In my experience (I'm Chair of the Sydenham Society's conservation and planning committee) a conversion such as the one that was going on at Church Rise should have had planning permission before the second lot of work started, and the developer should have displayed the yellow notice way before planning permission was given; in addition, neighbours should have received letters of consultation so that they could object. Of course some developers start work and then apply retrospectively - in a sense, the Council relies on neignbours and amenity societies (the Sydenham Society and the Forest Hill Society) to be its 'eyes and ears'. Re any subsequent development - there is no guarantee of a 'like for like' building unless Church Rise is in a conservation area (and even then this is not guaranteed, as planners and architects are not keen on a 'pastiche' approach, largely because the building materials, techniques and craftsmanship available to the Victorians and Edwardians is either not available or too expensive for today's developers / house builders). As has been explored on SE23.com on other threads, there has been a call for more conservation areas in SE23 - the best approach is to join the Forest Hill Society and get them involved (if you are not already a member).

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #28
24-01-2008 01:51 AM

Maybe a phone call to the planning officer concerned may shed some light on what the current and possible future situation may be?

When the council recently consulted neighbours about a conversion in the road where I live of the 11 properties notified 6 do not exist. I draw residents attention to the application by merely reproducing without comment the summary on the council's website, the consequence was 11 responses all opposed.

Although a yellow notice had been put up, it was placed in an obscure place.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #29
27-01-2008 02:06 AM

Well, the disappearing house is finally all gone, and for those interested you can see into the basement area to see exactly "what went wrong" Even the untrained eye can see it was never going to stay up.
You can also see the extensive work done by MR Scaffolders to secure the foundations the best they could. At least someone did something right.

Will post some pics tomorrow. But for now, im glad its over.

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