Dear Derby Hill Top
You must be exhausted pushing a buggy up that hill.
I agree with your comments. In my comments that Michael refered to I put the word FEW as I agree most parents are very polite and friendly.
I also agree that teenagers can also be very polite offering seats to those less able to stand than them.
I note that you folded your buggy something that one mother on this site at least has said she would not do.
There are a small minority of parents and their buggies who cause this anti social atmosphere. Only yesterday a woman barged her buggie against a ladies shopping bag to get through. Took about 4 barges , there appeared to be no attenpt to politely ask the lady if she is able to move it slightly.
As I also said on last lost please let us all try to be tolerant and friendly to our fellow bus users

I found this in the tfl website:

"If you have a buggy, you should be able to board any low-floor bus unless (in the driver`s opinion) it is so crowded that there is no room for you to travel safely. You will only be refused admittance when it is absolutely necessary. No one already travelling will be asked to get off the bus."

It seems that the old principle of first come, first served may still apply!

I agree Brian.I too have enquired on the matter.

It appears that TFL dont have a size limit for Prams/Buggies or a definition of what constitutes a very large buggie /pram

It also appears that TFL dont have a proper policy concerning Wheelchairs

and would rather the whole matter goes away.

The matter was broached by one of the Disability associations at a TFL meeting but no satisfactory policy was explained.

So it would appear that all Prams/Buggies can board any bus which has a space for Prams or Buggies.

I find the Hazyness of the TFL guidelines unhelpful to the public and ambiguous to say the least.

But one thing is for sure.Mothers with Very large buggies/Prams need not worry.A tank with a basket on top would seem acceptable.

Said he with his tongue well and truly lodged in his Cheek.LOL

Finally I must say.
If a Wheelchair cannot gain access to a bus and have the means of gaining access to that bus then the whole Disability policy (Which is required by Law) makes no sense and may just as well be abandoned (Impossible for the bus companies because of that law) Ergo s*ds law.

That is why there is the space for a wheelchair.
Possibly what is required is more folding seats to make room for a variety of travellers. But consider the economics. A lot of people can stand in that space.

I dont know why Michael got so worked up yesterday? This isnt a constant rant against parents and children, it's about inconciderate people like Bus Drivers (who have refused to stop for me in the past, I might add!) including people who just shove their over sized buggies on crowded buses disregarding anyone they might run over. Michael might think these buggies are 'just the right size' but not if they have to 'sqeeze' through the isle, running over peoples feet in the process! I speak with first hand experience, owch! Not even an 'excuse me' or 'i'm terribly sorry'. In addition, people playing loud ipods are equally annoying on public transport, but that's for a differnt thread I'm sure.

I do think wheelchairs should not have to wait for the next bus. As long as no other wheelchair on board they should be accomodated.
Surely this is the Christian thing to do for us to help those with severe mobility problems.

I'd expect a wheelchair user to be able to board a bus provided there was no other wheelchair on board which is the rule. I'd also expect someone with a buggy to be able to board a bus unlike this morning on the p4 when a group of passengers standing refused to move down to let on a grandmother and her very young grandchild ( who needed to lay flat) on even though there was a lot of room for them to do so.
No one shifted, but instead everyone fluffed themselves up in order to make themselves appear bigger, turned their backs, and the bus driver shouted at her to stop trying to board through the back doors. This woman was clearly 60 plus, agile with it, but clearly someone who without a buggy would have been offered a seat. However with a buggy she got a load of verbal plus couldn't even get on. Unfortunately that says it all. With a buggy this sweet gentle lady was transformed into the anti christ. bu

Brian, I have had absolutely enough of your irrational spouting about folding up buggies. I want you to answer the question that you keep avoiding. When I stand there trying to fold up my buggy, taking about 10 minutes to do, during which time the bus won't be able to move as its unsafe, tell me what I am to do with my baby twins. Am I to hand them to complete strangers to look after? Am I supposed to stand and hold them both plus my toddler?Go on, you are so condemning of me not being able to fold up my buggy, you start answering some of the questions,or just quite frankly,leave the game.

Having witnessed again the erratic and dreadful driving of p4 bus drivers I wil certainly not advocate anyone sitting holding a baby on their knee, unrestrained. An accident is pretty highly likely.

If there's no room for your buggy and you can't clearly take the twins out, then it seems you'll be waiting for the 2nd or 3rd bus and hope there is space for it in the area.

However passengers sitting in the fold up seat area of the P4, should move for a buggy or wheelchair.

On another note, a parent got on the 185 outside the Jenner with two children, one was about 3 and the other under 12 months which she carried with a Baby Bjorn. No buggy in sight and no real issue in transporting both children.

The only reason why I fold the buggy is because I can do it when I am travelling with ONE toddler and my children are not keen on being strapped unless tired/asleep. So far I have avoided using busses on my own when I was in charge of both of my toddlers. If I was forced due to circumstance to use busses with them on a regular basis, I would most likely turn into inconsiderate traveller who is banging on about me and my children's rights.

I admire Roz for using busses on regular basis with her children, something I am sure she does not do for her entertainment. Her early comments on this tread were very descriptive of what challenges parents face, and she is blamed for putting her children in certain situation ahead of someone who has not yet boarded the bus. Three lives of her children (and children are emotive to its parents the most) are what she protects.

I've seen many parents miss the busses and I see no wrong in trying to explain that we are all human, but somehow if with buggy we face extra animosity during our whereabouts. Our motives are questioned for the choices we make, without listening to our explanations.

And my hypothetical woman with an attitude and oversized buggy and shopping on the buggy, may need herself help. She may appear rude, because she is tired due to missing few busses, disturbed sleep, or she is adjusting to becoming a parent and has many worries on her mind. You will not bring a positive reaction out of her by criticising her, as she may understand your stance as a threat and would most likely fight for her child's rights to be on the bus. You may not be able to solve all her problems but she also deserves tolerance.

Dear Roz
Good morning to you. I actually did not mention buggies in my last post which I honestly thought no one could object to.
I must admit this morning a very nice experience with Buggies and Buses.
These was already 1 buggie on the bus but 2 at the stop. The first lady on moved her child out of the buggie in a few seconds and folded up the buggie allowing the other lady with double buggie board ( I must admit the second lady did not appear to thanks the other lady for her christian deed ). This very same lady jumped up at the next stop to allow an older person to sit.
Then when alighting the bus her older child , about 4 , sais thankyou to the driver many times.
Most people on the Bus were very impressed with this lady and how well she has brought her children up.
Surely a welcome positive note.

I once saw two buggies get jammed together. The two mothers took about five minutes to disentagle their buggies!

Saw a gent on a skateboard come down the pavement on the London Road pushing a buggy, going at a lick of knots as well.

I saw a gentleman riding a bicycle on the pavement along London Road. When I stopped him he pointed to his daughter on the back of the bike as if this is some type of excuse for cycling on the pavement.

I've also found it surprising how often I have to push a buggy on the curb side of lampposts to avoid oncoming pedestrians who can't be bothered to make space on the pavement for a buggy. Fortunately our buggy is just slim enough to manage this manoeuvre with most of the lampposts and bus stops on the south circular.

Dont start me on cyclists....public enemy no 1

Quite right. I've never given my bike up to a wheelchair user, a parent with kids, a pregnant lass or a person of advanced years.

Intransigence rules!

What has happened to Mrs Tiggywinkle.
You are missed , I am sure , by many.

I saw Mrs Tiggywinkle today driving a 176 with L plates! A sign of things to come?