..and how are you intending to make me or anyone else do this?

I'm afraid I agree with gingernuts and others. We/they have just as much right to get on the bus as you Roz and I'm afraid if that's your attitude if I'm infront of you in the 'queue' I will be getting on first, and if you even attempt to ram me with your buggy it will most certainly be you that's walking home, and getting a summons for assault!

This is the first time I have said anything regarding prams on buses most of the time I just keep stoomp for fear of reprisal even when right.
When we talk about prams it isnt just buses. Many is the time Ive nearly been mown down by a pram being pushed by a mum with a mobile phone glued to the ear not a care in the world as to what is going on all around her and acting as if the pavement was specially put there for her use alone.It the lack of consideration for others.The very people who would bend over backwards to help a mother and Child/Children are being abused by the very ones that they would help.Is it society in general that generates such an attitude.Is it the Haves denigrating the Have nots or is it the Have nots taking their anger out on society in general? Either way it shows that the caring in society is becoming sadly depleted and hatred of our fellow human beings is taking top postion in life.There is something deeply disturbing when a place like Forest Hill which is usually perceived to be benign is showing signs of the opposite.

I'll just ask , no insist, that the bus driver to allow us on in accordance with company and tfl policy. There is a wheelchair space and then there are buggy spaces. Passengers are supposed to make room for both if reasonable. If the bus is teaming and its not reasonable thats fine but if access is difficult just because people won't move along or question the mothers right to do so then I will be asking the driver to sort it out. If I have to face a load of verbal and reactions as witnessed, no endured on this thread then I will be seeking the removal of those persons from the bus. If that means you, tough.

Who on earth decided that I would be ramming you or anyone with my buggy? I don't recall mentioning that or considering 'assault' as a solution. My solution is to exercise my right to get my children home without facing the usual gauntlet of rubbish from some sections of the public who would prefer women to stay in the kitchen and children to be packaged small enough so as almost to be invisible.

Careful Davhel52, I got lambasted for calling buggies Chelsea Tractors!

I'm the first person to give up my seat on public transport for anyone who needs it more than me, that also includes a parent with a buggy carrying a baby on their person.

I don't think we're all selfish, but there doesn't seem to be an unwritten rule any more about who gets to use the areas and seats on the bus.

As I said before, some methods of public transport are great for buggies, London Overground's longitude trains allow for plenty of room for everyone and those stations with lifts, including Forest Hill make it easier to transport kids. Something which was a real nightmare under Southern.

As a sometime car, sometime public transport, user in a very congested city, I do find it hard to keep patient at times but I know that aggression is not the answer. In relation to people's rights to travel, I agree that we should focus on the children who do depend on others to move them about up to certain age. So try to put the adults and their varying levels of awareness of others to one side. We are all people whatever the age, heritage, family role, disability etc and all have the right to a decent life including getting about and we have an overstretched system in a society which places the car before public transport. Until that balance is addressed and people are more attracted to buses and trains than cars (even when they have the choice) and we are all prepared to pay according to our means through taxes to get to that position we will continue to see this undignified tussling about who has the most rights. It quite suits a ruling group to have people fighting amongst themselves rather than directing anger at those with the power to improve services for all. Just look at how the unemployed have been set up as a target for the ire of 'respectable' working people. A proper subsidised transport system with sufficient service levels, well-paid staff etc etc is perhaps what we should be fighting for rather than fighting each other. For anyone to generalise about any set of people in the way that is happening here is most unhelpful and anger should be directed to where it is most appropriate.

LOL RB.Sorry I speak as I find.

Pussyfooting around the Bush doesnt get a point over.

I agree with all you say.There are some Gentlemen left on Transport and I am glad I am retired.The nightly charge for a seat on the train left me speechless.Gentlemanly behaviour was sadly lacking even where pregnant ladies and the very elderly were to be considered.Which make me all the more angry at suburban travellers on local services.Compared to Rush hour traffic on transport its a cake walk.

Sandy.You sound like my kind of person.Its good to hear a benevolent slant to a persons comments in this time of great National disturbance
Thanks

Roz said:
''If you don't like it, I couldn't care less, but if you start .. telling me that your suitcase/shopping/gigantic backside gets priority ..you will be walking the rest of the way home. Be assured of that. ''

I guess there was a thought that you'd be ramming the buggy into people to remove them. I cant see why anyone else would help you remove these odious people who need a seat or a place to stand with their large holiday cases or enormous bags of Xmas shopping.

I speak as I find too. The bulk of this thread has been about lambasting parents who dare to travel on public transport so please lets not get silly when some of us dare to bite back.
The actual blow by blow account of what should happen if someone boards a bus with more than on child does not seem to have materialised on this thread which has focussed on complaining about why such people can't manage to fold a buggy with one hand whilst holding two in the other,and other gymnastic feats which no doubt we should have been busy acquiring when we were pregnant in anticipation of the great event. Let those who are cross about Leviathan style buggies tell us precisely what should happen when a mother of twins or plus one boards a bus. And some of us might try it next time but then there will probably be complaints that we are holding up the bus, as actually, the bus would not be able to move on whilst this is being done as its just plain dangerous.

Eh Roz? There is one area for disabled and buggies on the bus and the wheelchair gets priority, period.

Actually it's been about the attitudes of certain parents who feel it's their right to use oversized buggies which are not practical on some buses and remember Roz, you brought up the fact that you have the 'right' to use that space ahead of another passenger who may need that area than you.

While I respect that it's hard transporting young children on public transport, I'm sure 10 years ago, you'd find a way of transporting your children without 'gymnastic moves.'

Roz.Most of this discussion is/was about the space and the use of it, that was supplied by the Bus Companies/TFL for the use of wheelchairs and the usurping of that space for other uses (Othe than those laid down on notices by the said companies/TFL.The subject of collapsible buggies was introduced to show the change in Baby transport and its effect on bus users of all types of people.What did mums do before the change in Bus spaces.Believe it or not they had large families then.Its not a new concept.I am sympathetic to mums with large families but they are not conducive to the Buses as they are at present.If you wish to see a change in Bus Capacity and the types of vehicles allowed on them then I suggest that you lobby The Companies/TFL/Transport ministers local and national.

So what do you suggest davhel52? Are you suggesting parents (not 'mums' please) with more than one kid per adult shouldn't be allowed on buses? Where would this kind of exclusion policy stop?

I think both sides are putting valid arguments across and I neither fully support one side of the other. I do hate the usual polarised, stereotyping that goes on in these sorts of discussion though (I'm a 'self-righteous, criminal, scum' cyclist so I should be used to it by now). It'd be good if we could all accept that people in general are self-serving to some degree (even those of us who think we aren't) and could all do something to make things better. Parent's should think about what gets left in their buggies that makes it difficult to fold and remove what you can. People in general need to be more tolerant of small delays if people are trying to fold buggies, access the bus etc. And how about moving upstairs or to an empty seat rather than clinging to a pole near the exit because it's easier to get off from there?

I would have thought that my point was that Huge prams were the problem not large families.Yet another case of a comment being taken out of context.Your remark doesnt deserve attention.

I find this discussion amusing. We obviously have so much worry in our lives that we have to get het up over getting on a bus.

In my own position as a parent of two and a bus user I have a simple rule, if I can get on a bus with my kids and a buggy without inconveniencing anyone I will do so. If I need to fold the buggy to get on board then I do. If I cant get on the bus then I wait for the next one.

I dont HAVE to get on the first bus. I dont HAVE to goet angry because it is full. There are far more important things in life to worry about. If it's raining I have an umbrella and the kids are in raincoats and the buggy has it's hood up. It's only rain for goodness sake.

No wonder the world is turning into a ME, ME, ME society. There are afterall people who are far less fortunate and less able than a dad and his two kids. Wait in the rain with two kids or sit in a wheelchair in the rain because someone with a buggy is in the disabled space, I know what I would choose.

Smile folks, just imaging living in Africa in the middle of no-where and having to walk 5 miles for water, we dont have it difficult do we??

Well said Londonrz!

I think you are overreacting davhel52. I think you've made some good points in the thread but in this instance you wrote:

Apologies if I've misunderstood what you've said but regardless of whether you meant buggies or families my response stands.

Why not? Because you don't agree with it? Since you mention you are retired are you not a little old to be throwing your toys out the (huge) pram? I wonder whether you even bothered to read all of my post.

Whatever.Have it your way.I admit I shouldnt have mentioned that I was retired it could have given the impression that I courted favour instead of equality of opinion.Its always difficult to to give an opinion under these circumstances and I must admit also that us oldies are irritating and should
not stick our noses in where it doesnt concern us specially where buses are involved.Sadly I dont drive and never have so I dont have the option of opting out of public transport.Regardess of my opinion.Large Prams will-I am sure-be used on buses and the likes of myself had better accept the fact.AS for Large Families?Who am I to interfere with the Human Urge.Its been going on for quite some time now I myself am 1 0f 7 (Sounds like the Borge in Star trek.LOL)

Roz, I hear your points. However, please appreciate that you phrase it in such a way that it just gets people's backs up.

showtunesgirl - I agree. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as they say.

Can't believe you are all still here, slugging this one out. You are all reeling around the ring, punch drunk but refusing to call it a draw.

We haven't even made it to 200 posts of nonsense about who does or doesn't deserve a space without a seat on the bus. This thread still has a long way to go before it can rival Religion (392 posts) or The Big Issue (212 posts), but congratulations on passing the Children in Pubs thread.
However, congratulations are due as this is now the most popular anti-children thread on the site (surpassing 'get children out of the Horniman' and 'I don't want a nursery in my road') if you ignore the thread where so many people tried to find ways to stop children swimming in Forest Hill.