I don't think I made generalisations; I did make an observation to try and provide a bit of balance, which isn't the same thing.

Buses are not easy vehicles to negotiate at the best of times and I'm sure it is an obstacle course for parents, the elderly etc. But I have to repeat in response to the assertion that it's only able bodied people that obstruct space for wheelchairs, that I've seen buggy users do the same - and even more annoyingly when the buggies are full of shopping. So let's please keep a sense of perspective about this. I don't think anyone wants mums to feel so afraid they can't go out - and there's no evidence that anyone was calling for that.
A civilised society should try and accommodate the needs of all - but it also requires ALL of us to exercise a bit of consideration and common sense.

Jane, I don't see how it's prerogative to put a view that a task that parents have been in the past been more than able to carry children and fold up a buggy to board a bus has suddenly become a civil right to carry their children and shopping in a buggy blocking up space for other passengers, particularly the disabled.

It's a privilege, not a right to use the disabled space for this purpose and parents should be practical when planning a journey by bus if a wheelchair user needs that space.

My mother over 30 years ago used to take me everywhere on buses with step entrances (Think the Routemaster on the 176 and 12 in the early 80s) and narrow passageways where she folded up the pushchair with NO problems at all, even if I was ill and needed to go to the hospital or surgery, so what has changed in a generation where taking babies and toddlers means keeping them in the buggy on the bus?

This is much a fact as much as the designs for most modern buggies and prams are not practical for use on our local buses, despite the low floor buses we now take for granted.

However if you use London Overground, there's plenty of space for buggies/disabled passengers and some stations have lift access for both which should be congratulated.

As I have said my mother did the same nearly 60 years ago. Mothers seem to have a stronger constitution in earlier days
Also please do not keep on about rights. I know the human rights act is a load of rubbish but not sure it says that everyone has a right to enter a bus.
Please let us have a sense of proportion and tolerance.

Brian,
60 years ago your mother had a rather different life than most mothers today and has little relevance to current situation with transport. I resent that you imply that mothers of today are of weaker constitution.

When was the last time you were missed by an empty bus lately?

I have seen busses not stop for mothers with buggies when there is room on board. IT IS A DISGRACE! And this doesn’t seem to be an isolated instance.

Rights - For the record, I did not mention 'civil rights', or the 'human rights act'. I know that the word 'rights' can be easily misunderstood so was maybe not a wise term for me to use. I meant it in the context of social and ethical principles; of the fundamental belief of our society that everyone should be treated equally, and therefore that those who are disadvantaged be given preferential treatments to enable them to have similar rights to the more advantaged.

As to why parents should be allowed to 'block' buses with their children, you may be interested to know that the Greater London Assembly have been conducting research into accessibility of public transport in London and their research proposal states the following:

"Defining accessibility
3.2 It is proposed that the investigation adopts a relatively broad definition of accessibility. While people with disabilities are disproportionally affected by barriers to access, other groups such as older people and parents and guardians with young children also have trouble negotiating the transport network. The Committee would therefore adopt the EU definition of persons with reduced mobility which widens the definition of those who may encounter barriers and incorporates the social model of disability."

I would think training of public transport staff to improve their tolerance of everyone with reduced mobility would be a good start. The 176 driver should be first in line.....

I do wonder if the offending gentleman driver ears are burning. Does he know he is a celebrity.
None of us know the full facts. Surely in our legal system one is innocent until proven otherwise.
It is not an easy job I would imagine especially dealing with yobs.
I am sure most bus drivers do a great job.

So this GLA study claims that parents have accessibility problems, however it doesn't take into account the adjustments they could make to make their journeys easier on public transport by buying a smaller buggy or dare say it, FOLD them up and place in the luggage rack where it's practical to do so.

Clearly we've evolved to where parents can use buggies on most forms of public transport, however it comes with common sense, something which is lacking from both some parents and the bus companies who either enforce the rules too tightly, drive past parents at bus stops or are too lenient by letting on too many buggies who then block passageways.

rbmartin, with the greatest of respect, have you actually listened to any of the arguments and points made here? No one buys a big buggy for the hell of it. I have outlined before some reasons why these larger ( although the size differential amongst double buggies is not that wide) are actually more beneficial to turning round in tight spaces and are lighter to push and to lift up and down pavements and buses. Forgive me if I am one of those parents who doesn't want a hernia pushing a heavy and cranky McClaren up hills. And you fail to take into account the issues raised by Jane2 about how not every parent would be able to fold up a buggy, having more than one child being a significant reason. What solution do you propose for twin parents or parents with more than one; I suppose they/we shouldn't have the cheek to venture out.
And what if the luggage rack is already full with other peoples luggage/shopping and there is nowhere to sit down with a child and no one offers. Your response therefore continues to be one dimensional.

And believe me, if there was a practical solution to getting my children around on buses I would be taking it however putting them into a light twin Mcclaren which is hard to turn around, which can't take any loads on the handlebars ie shopping , which generally has unreliable brakes especially on hills, which can tip over easily or be tipped over by a third child who incidentally sometimes sits on the top of it anyway when tired, is not on my agenda right now as it would not be able to be used in day to day life.

I actually have been thinking of another incident I witnessed a few years ago- before I had children of my own- in Herne Hill- when the bus driver opened the doors to a young woman who then proceeded to fold down her buggy with a child in her arms for the purposes of getting on= the driver shouted at her that she was taking too long, and shut the doors and drove off leaving her on the pavement. Seemingly women and parents cannot win.

Its a fact of life that children come with baggage but perhaps the real agenda is to produce smaller more flexible children who can squeeze into the tightest space imaginable.

Makes me wonder what I was thinking, using the most lightweight Maclaren buggy I could find as soon as my kids were old enough to use one. Clearly I'm the bad parent here, using such a potentially hazardous piece of equipment.

This thread is going around in circles. Can we all agree that the 176 driver should stop and allow parents / carers with buggies to board the bus when there is room?

Roz, you use the most extreme of instances to back up your points, when others could easily use a lightweight buggy when it's appropriate to do so for the child.

Yes, instances of buggy folding taking too much time and the driver going off even happened in the good old days, but yet in that era, parents were expected to fold them up regardless and nothing has changed now except for the fact that buggy designs have changed where it's easier for the parent to wheel their kids and shopping and buses are now low floor so that the need to fold the chair has been reduced to the extent that parents expect to be able to wheel them on the bus and into the wheelchair area.

No-one is suggesting you and Jane2 shouldn't go out and use public transport with your buggies, but then don't complain when a wheelchair user requires the space you're using as they have under TfL guidelines, first use of the area.

"This thread is going around in circles. Can we all agree that the 176 driver should stop and allow parents / carers with buggies to board the bus when there is room? "

Seems we can’t. There are some posting on this thread that have far too unrealistic expectation of mothers with young children and don’t want to appreciate that they are deserving members of public too. It seems that they should be grateful for being allowed to use public transport on a list of conditions:
1 – only 2 buggies on each bus (if one cares to stop that is)
2 – must fold them to accommodate other passenger needs, because some needs are more important (why is this? Are we less human?)
3 – get a lecture how someone’s mother did it in her stride 30 or 60 years ago, or how they bought wrong kind of buggy
Please read post #59. Add to that if mother is having more than one child some of the above requests become too much to do with one pair of hands.


"Roz, you use the most extreme of instances to back up your points, when others could easily use a lightweight buggy when it's appropriate to do so for the child."

No she is not. Roz is just trying to explain how hard it is to look after more than one child on a bus. And I believe that she would avoid using buses if she had an alternative solution to her commitments.

If we lived in a utopian world where we all had equal rights to services, then it'd be a fantastic place to live in.

The fact is we don't. Wheelchair users until the last decade had to rely on once a week mobility buses to take them shopping once a week, thanks to to disability campaigners, they now have the same rights as parents have always had to go on mainstream bus services on a daily basis.

Maybe the next course of action for Roz, Jane2 and the big buggy consumers is to campaign for public transport purely to transport buggies along with wheelchairs given prority, this could be done on a design similar to the P4 single decker bus where all the seats are ripped out between the front and middle doors to allow for them and standing passengers to be side by side.

The fact is Roz would be doing the same thing as my parents did with me 30 years ago if it wasn't for changes with buses and buggy designs, which has made transporting children much easier than in the 1980s.

For the majority of the time (outside rush hour at least), there's enough room on most buses for people to get on (the ablebodied to get a seat upstairs) and room for several buggies/suitcases/wheelchairs.

The problem and the bitterness only arises when the buses are already crowded which tends to be at peak times when we're all either trying to get to work/school/nursery on time or on the way home when we're tired/stressed from the day. That's when most of us probably feel that we deserve to be on that bus and tough for everyone else.

In those instances, it probably is 'first come, first served' in the space. If there are 20 passengers already standing in the area (with no seats upstairs/down) then it's unlikely the driver is going to stop for a buggy in any case. Wheelchairs, I guess they should but I wonder how many do - assuming that it's less hassle to try to get the 20 sardines off the bus again.

"Please read post #59"

Was that directed at me? If so, can I ask why? Is it because I forgot to post a smiley face to indicate that my comments on Maclaren buggies wasn't to be taken entirely seriously?

I stand by my point that this thread is going around in circles. Each side has made their case, and recent posts have added little to the debate, just repeated points already made. I doubt anyone is going to change his/her position now if they haven't already done so.

Sorry, was it the first of November or the first of April yesterday??

If you are always absolutely fuming no wonder you have mood problems.
I always believe in friendship and tolerance towards by fellow citizens.

On an etiquette matter I am distressed at the number of persons who do not thank the driver on entering and alighting the autobus. What has happened to good manners.
I even see people on the dreaded mobiles who completely ignore the driver. The driver should chuck then of the bus. Drivers are humans and deserve politeness.

...same post...

Very tolerant and friendly as usual Brian

OK maybe you have got me there but I strongly believe passengers should be polite to the driver and too many totally ignore them.

I also hear on a number of posts that people believe they have rights to board a bus. If that is the case many fellow Britons in rural areas would be taking Her Majesties Government to court.

We are blessed indeed in this city with a great public transport system . All to many people take this for granted.

What has happened as well to queues at Bus Stops. Often free for all. Infirm and frail pushed aside.

Someone also mentioned time it takes to fold these buggies or whatever they are. If they are folded when the adult reaches the Bus stop should be no problem.

Anyway I agree Tolerance is a virtue to ones fellow Citizens.

I do very much believe in tolerance towards others which is what prompted me to post on here in the first place, as I thought there was unneccessary animosity shown towards mothers and I felt I had to defend them.

Brian with all due respect its clear from your posts that you have not folded a buggy or had to board a bus with a baby or small child recently; so please do believe those of us with a lot more experience that if there was an easier way to do things, we would be doing it!

"Someone also mentioned time it takes to fold these buggies or whatever they are. If they are folded when the adult reaches the Bus stop should be no problem."
I also forgot to mention in my previous posts that most scissor-type folding buggies (like Maclaren) mentioned on here, are actually unsuitable for babies under 6 months old (due to the fact they don't go flat enough as is necessary for small babies spines) so is not an option for those with young babies anyway.

So even if you do have a folding buggy, considering that you often have to wait 10 or 15 minutes for a bus, and you often have no idea when the bus will arrive (except for those stops which have estimated arrival signs, but they are not reliable) what do you suggest the parent does with their baby after they have arrived at the stop and duly folded the buggy? Its too long to hold them in your arms - the average 12 month old weighs 10 kilos - try holding 10 (wriggling) large bags of sugar in your arms for any length of time. Shall we then sit them on the concrete path? Most babies only start walking when they are way past 1 yr old, usually 1 1/2. Even if your child is a toddler and able to stand, they will have no sense of danger and standing next to a busy road waiting for a bus is dangerous for an unrestrained toddler, especially if you are trying to keep hold of more than one child, as many parents are. Keeping your child safely clipped in the buggy until the bus arrives is the only sensible solution.

There are slings of course, a good option if you only have one small child and no shopping to carry, but this does rely on someone offering you a seat on the bus!

The message from some posters on here seems to be that parents are lucky to be allowed on the bus with children in buggies in the first place, and therefore that we should stop complaining about it! Reminds me a bit of that Monty Python 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch....

I do think this thread has run its course now as I am just repeating myself and feel its getting boring.... and if any new parents have read this thread I doubt very much if they will attempt travelling by bus with their babies now anyway!

An interesting topic.
People generally seem to be less considerate these days. Buggies are getting bigger and bigger and seem to take up half the bus, parents think they have a right to the space. I've never seen anyone attempt to fold up their buggy or put their children on their laps when the bus is busy.