I don't recall ever suggesting ousting or contemplating ousting a wheelchair user so that I can get on with a buggy. However the decision as to whether I would disembark to allow one to take the space my children occupy would depend on a number of factors but the priority would be the welfare of my children.

The fact remains that in the hierarchy of need, children in buggies come second to wheelchair users, but having done some checking, buggies then take preference to ambulant passengers so I do have the right to ask passengers in that space to move aside to let the buggy into the buggy space. That space is actually for both wheelchair users and buggies.

The greatest obstacle to wheelchair users on buses appears to be the attitude of other passengers , not buggy users who also don't appear that willing to move along or to get off to enable wheelchairs to embark. Again, it would be commonsense and sensible to do, as they seem to have done in Brighton, to take out more of the seats to accommodate more wheelchair users and buggies, thereby removing or at least reducing the problem.

Its a shame that challenging what are clearly misogynistic and child hating views is called rude whilst the original sentiments are considered acceptable but there are no surprises there really.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/tran.../1171.aspx

"Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space. If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board, and the wheelchair space is occupied by standing passengers or buggies, standing passengers will be asked by the driver to make room if possible, buggy owners will be asked to fold them and put them in the luggage space or keep them by their side."

Wasn't going to get involved with this but I do want to recall an incident that happened on the P4.

A few months ago a wheelchair user tried to get on, there were two buggies (one of them full of shopping) blocking the space and the driver, very reasonably asked the mums to fold down one of the buggies and move the other which was parked at an awkward angle.
Blimey! the fuss they made about it - to the point of accusing the driver of discriminating against them. It was a cringeworthy scene and the buggy users made themselves look very silly. No wonder some drivers don't enforce the rules as they should - anything for a quite life no doubt.

My point being that stupidity and selfishness are not confined to particular groups and I have seen some incredibly thoughtless use of buggies too - especially when they're being used as shopping trollies.

I concur with a previous poster that if we all exercised a bit of common sense and consideration for others, it would make a huge difference.

I agree see for miles. Tolerance of handicapped people seems to have reduced lately.

When I was young in early 50's no pushchairs or prams were allowed on buses unless folded. Ladies coped very well back them seems modern ladies can be more selfish to other travellers especially those less fortunate in wheel chairs

This is a great pity as politeness and tolerance of others are great virtues.

Apologies for typos.

There are selfish people who are single.
There are selfish people who happen to be parents.
But if you question the behaviour of SOME of those parents, sooner or later you are met with a cry of 'Child haters'

No one wants to be thought of as a child hater, so it effectively stifles opposing views.

But it seems perfectly acceptable to make very sweeping, insulting (and condescending) statements about those without kids.

I do think it's very sad how polarised views are becoming between parents and non-parents. It never used to be like this...I wonder why things have changed so much. Surely we all want a comfortable, hassle-free journey on public transport and I certainly always try and show consideration to others.

Well said .

The problem is modern parents assume it's a right to carry their oversized Chelsea Tractor buggies and prams on buses.

Another side issue is why do some parents continue to carry their kids in them when they can clearly walk?

Actually some of these allegedly oversized buggies are much more manoueverable than say the standard McClaren techno, making them able to turn on a sixpence; absolutely necessary for getting on and off public transport without doing ones back in. Buggies like the urban detour and three wheelers are only marginally bigger than the McClaren so there is little in it. Most are designed to get through standard 800mm doorways (doorwidths for wheelchairs therefore making everywhere accessible). If you have more than one child you need something with the appropriate tensile strength to enable a double buggy to last a few years as they get a lot of wear and tear, more than a single.Theres no way around it; double buggies are bigger because the usually contain two children and need to be engineered to be easily pushed around, up and down kerbs etc as well as on and off buses. Unfortunately children take up a lot of room, but so do the overweight, those with briefcases, passengers with shopping etc, shopping carts, thick coats and even these fold up bicycles which are so prevalent these days, but I don't see threads complaining about those.

Young children ie 2/3/4 can usually walk but not that far without getting tired, so putting them into a buggy is a practical option especially when there is shopping to be carried as well.

I don't recall being condescending to childless people,as essentially, I have no idea which posters are childless and which are not, but there are plenty of people who have brought up kids in the past and perhaps have forgotten or are simply not aware of the practical challenges many parents face these days.

Unfortunately child hating, or perhaps child intolerance is still very much evident amongst posters here by their intent on parent and child bashing (metaphorically speaking of course) at almost every opportunity.

I have looked at the extract from tfl posted earlier and it doesn't actually require parents to get off the bus to let a wheelchair user on and if they can't fold the buggy for practical reasons then that won't be required so it appears that my voluntary intention, should it have been practical, would have been a goodwill gesture. So much for the rubbish hurled at me for refusing to do so. I'd like to see some of the posters here getting off or even offering their seats to others- load of hypocrisy.

The last time I saw an obese person get on a bus, they managed to get through the tight gangway from the entrance to the area where the wheelchair and buggies use, not an oversized Chelsea tractor buggy who has to use the middle door to get on the bus in the first place.

For the record I have nothing against parents and their children using public transport, it's the fact they feel they have the right to use space allocated to disabled passengers, which is why we have low floor buses in the first place.

Roz I was actually referring to a post on another thread about childless people being clueless, and various posts over the past few years accusing people of being child haters. It's cropped up a lot - I should have made that clear.

I'm sorry you've had difficulties getting on and off buses - and actually I don't think people are innately intolerant but I think there has been a marked shift in parental attitudes since, say, my parent's day.
People are generally more outspoken and vociferous about their rights, which you could argue is progress, but at the same time it is going to invite a more robust debate from people who don't have the same priorities.

I really wanted to make the point that actually, buggy users can have a sense of entitlement over wheelchair users, because I have seen it and in the interests of balance I felt I wanted to add it.

And I can honestly say I'm not a hypocrite, I always give up my seat for the pregnant, elderly, mums with small children etc - even on one occasion when I wasn't feeling too well. I just can't do that thing of pretending not to have seen a pregnant woman getting on the train- which I have seen others do.

I wasn't going to comment, but...(I'm going to regret this).

1. Everyone who has ever had a child in Forest Hill in the past 7 years has met the '176-buggy hating driver' (keeping with the title of this thread)

It's almost a right of passage, to be left in the rain with a crying one month old and a weeks load of shopping, as the 176 driver pulls away with a half full bus. This has happened to almost everyone I know who has a baby, or has had baby in Forest Hill.

2. (the tread sidebar) Yes, I am sure most reasonable believe that people with wheelchairs should have priority in the wheelchair section and I am sure there have been people who aren't reasonable - whether they have children or not.

3. Basically, the lesson we should all learn is to be kind to people, and if you are a healthy person, please be considerate of OAPs, disabled people, mothers & fathers with children and all people who look like a bit of extra help would appreciated.

As for the 176 driver, I wish on him a delivery of triplets that he needs to take to the hospital for a check-up, in the rain, at 6:00 pm, via bus.

the aisles in the buses are usually big enough for a buggy to go through - until the bus design decides to throw in a pole at the end with a curve that stops it (not at the wheels but somewhere else along the frame)! The P4 from lewisham is like that.

that is why people board from the middle doors.

also, passengers refuse to move down the aisle so you cannot push your buggy to the back even though the space is there, which also leads to boarding thru the middle doors.

i have been on plenty of buses where the wheelchair and buggy space is taken up by shopping carts. who should get priority then - the children or the shopping.

i would say probably the ones who go there first!

I don't use the bus during the weekday unless I have my entire family with me. That way my husband and I can divide the children up between us, for example by putting them both on one lap (if we get offered a seat) whilst the other wrangles with our bags and the (folded/unfolded) buggy, or whatever permutation allows us to make sure we all travel safely without incurring the wrath of fellow bus users.

The 176 is a short walk from my door. It goes past the friends' house where I drop off my son in the mornings and stops right outside my place of work and my daughter's nursery. But rarely have I made it to work on time by bus because I have had to wait for at least 3 buses to go by before I can get my toddler daughter and buggy on the bus in the first place.

So I drive. I have to park about 10 minutes walk from work due to the exorbitant charges nearer my office, but that's ok (if I can get a space) because I factor that into my journey time, and actually I like the me-and-my-little-girl time. However, if I am running late or going in to the office late, I can rarely find a space. So it would be great to be able to get on the bus - but what happens at the end of the day, when due to having a child in a buggy I can't get on a bus early enough to be at school in time to pick up my son?

I'm lucky to be able to (barely) afford a car, but that'll change soon I'm sure. I feel guilty about the pollution, extra money, taking up a parking space etc etc but really don't see any choice. Until my daughter is old enough to walk/stand for long enough for me not to need to use a buggy in rush hour, we won't be able to use the bus.

Suggestions welcome (seriously)......

What a great many posts.
Eoz mentioned overweight passengers. I agree they are a major problem as take up more than one seat. Trying to perch on what remains of a seat is very uncomfortable.
Perhaps Ryan Air should take over buses and charge the overweight twice.

Which is fine if you have a standard buggy, however you clearly haven't seen the Chelsea Tractor double buggies with Rolls Royce style interiors too keep the little darlings warm or those silly three wheeled buggies which don't allow enough room to fit 2 buggies into the wheelchair space.

However I'll give credit to some of the 197 buses which can squeeze 3 (or two Chelsea tractors) buggies between the front and middle doors.

Things would be a lot better if we had more bendy buses rather than a policy for scrapping these wonderful vehicles that had ample room for wheelchairs, buggies, and lots of passengers. They even had some seats with enough space for my knees.

Unfortunately some clown decided to replace them.

If you are ever on a 176 bus that does not stop for a buggy when there is plenty of space, please speak to the driver - explain his mistake, take down his number and contact the bus company. It is time his employer knew his personal policy is not in line with his company's.

rbmartin - I think all the comments about chelsea-tractors, little darlings, silly buggies etc is just being deliberately provocative and not actually helping this discussion. Please lets stick to the facts. Also I think the focus on buggies is taking away from the fact that babies and children are small people who have rights too, as do disabled people.

The facts are this: The person in the wheelchair and the baby/young child both have something in common - they cannot walk by themselves (or if they can, not very far) so need wheelchair/buggy to enable them to move about.

The disabled person and the parent with children both need to get from A to B; there is only one space on the (badly designed) buses. For whatever reason, neither can make their journey without getting on the bus. Who has priority? I guess whoever gets the space first.

I don't see why in this situation its is the mother with her children that is being vilified. Try factoring any of the following probable scenarios: she's already waited for 3 buses; its probably getting close to lunch/tea time and her children are hungry and getting fractious (the toddler has probably already had a tantrum); she needs to get home to feed and change the baby (try doing that on a bus); the baby is teething and she is worried he will start crying and annoy the other passengers; or the baby has just fallen asleep for the first time all day; she needs to pick up her older child from school/nursery and if she is late for nursery will get charged £1 for every minute she is late; she's wondering if the newly potty-trained toddler will be able to hang on until they get home....I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Sorry to have to spell it out, but I get the feeling that some of the posters on here have either forgotten, or never experienced, the particular stresses that babies and toddlers babies can bring.

I personally think it is extremely admirable of Roz that she travels by bus with her twin babies and toddler; she deserves our support, not our criticism. For those of you who have criticised her stance, I challenge you to look after 3 small children all day long, with many chores to do, and only public transport to get you around; then come back here and tell me you feel the same.

There is of course the grey area of buggies that can be folded, children who can sit on laps etc. There are also cases where its just not practical for a buggy to be folded (like twins), where you have more than one small child, or where the mother is pregnant and would find it difficult to fold the buggy and carry the child.

There are also going to be selfish people no matter what; yes some of them will be parents, some won't. There are many able-bodied people who refuse to move down the bus or go up the stairs. I also once saw a man on a packed bus shout awful abuse at a young woman with downs syndrome who was getting off the bus quite slowly (I gave him a piece of my mind, in case you are wondering). Just because I saw this doesn't mean I make generalisations about able-bodied people in the same way many of you are making about mothers with buggies.

Haranguing mothers with small children who already have the rest of society looking over their shoulder and criticising their every move is really not going to help. If you'd like more evidence of what can happen when a mother is scared of going out with her baby, I can provide it.

PS. I mainly referred to mothers in my last post; any of this can of course happen to fathers too, who are increasingly becoming main carers of babies/children.