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Is The Popes Visit Worth £10million.....
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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #1
17-09-2010 01:50 PM

Of taxpayers money ??

Since yesterday the roads around near London Bridge, Waterloo, Southwark Station & St.Georges Circus have been swamped with motorcycle police - just standing around, which I think is a waste of resource and money

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #2
17-09-2010 02:42 PM

You could say the same about any state visit. I am not a catholic but he seems a nice elderly man.
Would be nice if the same Police were actually catching criminals , but let us to be generous to this gentleman and his church.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #3
17-09-2010 02:56 PM

I would say the same about any state visit, a nice man who covered up the child abuse that was rife in the Catholic church

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #4
17-09-2010 02:57 PM

And has very old attitudes to gays and womens rights, maybe the catholic church and other religions woke up and joined the 21st century

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #5
17-09-2010 03:29 PM

Crazy - I thought the government had run out of money?
I guess they can find the money when they want to.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #6
17-09-2010 03:35 PM

I do not agree with some of his views , for instance lady priests , but surely we should show tolerance to an old gentleman.

I do not believe any one is saying or believes that that he abhors child abuse , but how can this possibly be his fault. The local people in Ireland , Belgium are the ones who should be prosecuted.

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #7
17-09-2010 05:24 PM

Can we all just agree to ignore this thread and the direction it appears to be going in? Then it will just quietly slip away unnoticed.

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roz


Posts: 1,790
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #8
17-09-2010 08:00 PM

Not all old gentlemen or at least their views deserve tolerance. Due respect for old age yes,but wisdom does not always grow with the years and senior citizens should not automatically be without challenge or criticism.

This particular gentleman was a member of the Hitler Youth. Some may say it was difficult not to be and thats probably true however any person with Nazi credentials, however 'enforced' upon them, should not be holding public office let alone be a Head of State and an alleged spiritual leader. In addition we can't afford to spend such sums in a recession, Head of State or not. We should have asked for a healthy contribution from the Catholic Churches coffers. They're not short of a bob or two.

On the other issues that the Catholic Church is famous for, ie homophobia, anti women, anti contraception even in Third World countries where AIDs is rife and the death rate high, and of course that little matter of covering up child abuse and other crimes such as the systematic torture of young children in convent schools( a work colleague today told us she was tied over a barrel and beaten because she wet the bed at 6 years old in a convent boarding school), there is no need for words as no words would be good enough. Pope Benedict as most popes before him, have assisted with the cover up of such crimes for many years and are insisting that the matters are dealt with 'in house' as they above the law. If this was another Head of State with this sort of record I doubt whether they would be allowed in.

Lets hope thats it for another 30 years.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #9
18-09-2010 12:04 PM

I do appreciate the church has had many problems and I repeat I am neither a catholic or churchgoer , but I do agree with him that society is probably weaker because so many have no religious beliefs.

I do not want to go into all comments but would say it was impossible to avoid serving in The Hitler Youth. Both him and his family etc would probably have been rounded up. I think very unfair to judge him on this point.
This country has hosted many heads of state of very dubious pedigree.

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #10
19-09-2010 10:00 AM

If you want to see a future without religion, look at our own country and its increasing move towards euthanasia:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-O6_pLZGOo[/youtube]

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sandy


Posts: 189
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #11
19-09-2010 10:56 AM

What about economic policies that threaten the poorest members of society in what I assume you take to be a society 'with religion'? It's a bit simplistic to associate good or bad behaviour with religion or lack of it.

Maybe if those who could afford to pay their taxes (but work hard at not paying) did so, hospitals would be able to be funded sufficiently to provide better care.

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #12
19-09-2010 11:24 AM

sandy: What about economic policies that threaten the poorest members of society in what I assume you take to be a society 'with religion'?
No, I don't think our society is particularly religious at all. I think we're fast becoming an atheistic society, and euthanasia is a good example of what's coming.

sandy: It's a bit simplistic to associate good or bad behaviour with religion or lack of it.
Of course religious people can behave badly, and vice versa. What I'm saying is that if you take religion out, anything becomes thinkable and therefore ultimately doable. Such as killing old people to save money.

What protects the elderly from euthanasia? The sanctity of human life. And that's an inherently religious idea. Atheists hate it.

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lottie


Posts: 45
Joined: Mar 2009
Post: #13
19-09-2010 11:43 AM

Wow nothing like a bit of Aetheist bashing

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #14
19-09-2010 12:27 PM

Not being religious doesn't not mean having no sense of right or wrong. Nor does it mean that life should be any less valued. Just as I wouldn't call all Catholics paedophiles, nor all Muslims terrorists, I wouldn't suggest all atheists are prospective sociopaths (as you do with your statement about the sanctity of life).

As for euthanasia, it probably deserves a thread of its own. But for the record, I would agree with it with certain safeguards in place. Just because a person is elderly (no) but in the final stages of a painful illness (yes). Not least since I've watched people suffer (and I do mean suffer) through final days and weeks of agony until nature takes its course with the impact that has on the whole family and wider circle.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #15
19-09-2010 12:38 PM

I thought I was an atheist, but as I don't believe in going round and randomly bumping people off, I must have been mistaken.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #16
19-09-2010 01:19 PM

Hopefully no one is suggesting that atheists do not care or contribute to society but just saying that many people get sense of well being by believing.

I am a 90% atheist but still watches a lot of The Holy Fathers visit and it was good to see so many people happy because of his presence .

I think it is a credit to a man of his age that he managed the difficult schedule.

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michael


Posts: 3,200
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #17
19-09-2010 02:01 PM

Did I miss the bit in the video that showed that all the murderous doctors are atheists?
It is unfortunate that these days it is almost possible to keep people alive indefinately. They may have lost all human dignity, their memories, and independent mobility, but we can keep them barely alive for decades.
Death of oneself and those you love is one of the hardest things to deal with in life, but it is still an inevitability. Individuals should have a choice regarding how much interference they want from the medical profession when they are in a long-term terminal condition. Unfortunately some religious people (and some atheists) feel they should decide these questions for you.
Whilst this debate rages millions of people are dying of AIDS and other preventable diseases due to the ignorant leadership of certain religions and certain individuals telling them that condoms don't work or worse.

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hillsideresident


Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #18
19-09-2010 07:46 PM

"The death of God, Nietzsche argued, means that all the Christian values that have shaped the West rest on a mythical foundation. One may, out of habit, continue to live according to these values for a while [my italics]." Which is why atheists can, as we all know, be perfectly good people. "Over time, however, the values will decay, and if they are not replaced by new values, man will truly have to face the prospect of nihilism, what Nietzsche termed 'the abyss'."

The philosopher Peter Singer is at the forefront of atheist thinking, and he is "uncompromisingly working out the implications of living in a truly secular society, one completely purged of Christian and transcendental foundations". And those implications, according to Singer, include "removing traditional protections for unwanted children, people with mental disabilities, and the noncontributing elderly".

The above quotes are from: http://www.catholiceducation.org/article...me0132.htm

This is why I think we need, more than ever, the Pope, the Catholics and the whole Christian Church. This is why I think the money spent on the Pope's visit was worth every penny - for all of us.

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michael


Posts: 3,200
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #19
19-09-2010 08:28 PM

wikipedia Wrote:
Criticism of Singer

Singer's positions have been criticised by groups concerned with what they see as his attack upon human dignity, such as advocates for disabled people and right-to-life supporters. Singer has replied that many people judge him based on secondhand summaries and short quotations taken out of context, not his books or articles.
....
In 1989, when Peter Singer attempted to speak during a lecture at Saarbrücken, he was interrupted by a group of protesters including advocates for the disabled. He offered the protesters the opportunity to explain why he should not be allowed to speak. The protesters indicated that they believed he was opposed to all rights for the disabled. They were unaware that, although Singer believes that some lives are so blighted from the beginning that their parents may decide their lives are not worth living, in other cases, once the decision is made to keep them alive, everything that can be done to improve the quality of their life should, to Singer's mind, be done. The ensuing discussion revealed that there were many misconceptions about his positions, but the revelation did not end the controversy. One of the protesters expressed that entering serious discussions was a tactical error

(My italics)

It is best that all religions accept that some laws are no longer valid in the modern world (stoning adulterers and blasphemers, opposition to condoms, conversion by the sword, genocide of other peoples, and slavery). That is not to say that most religious people are not good people and religions have some excellent values that promote human kindness. But we have moved beyond a time when rights of man are set out purely by God. The European Convention on Human Rights, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and UN Rights of the Child give us a post-religious universalism that prevents the decent to nihilism postulated by Nietzsche.

In the modern world, when we need to accept that not everybody is the same religion as us but that they are equal as human beings, it is no longer relevant to base our morals entirely on a single religion developed hundreds of years ago. But nor should we abandon all the collected wisdom of thousands of years of human philisophical development.

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sandy


Posts: 189
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #20
19-09-2010 09:05 PM

These criticisms of Singer on the quoted website (and I am not supporting him as I know little of his ideas at first hand) come from someone who has attacked Obama thus "In case you hadn't heard, D'Souza wrote a piece about the president in Forbes magazine. "Incredibly, the U.S. is being ruled according to the dreams of a Luo tribesman of the 1950s," he wrote. "This philandering, inebriated African socialist, who raged against the world for denying him the realization of his anticolonial ambitions, is now setting the nation's agenda through the reincarnation of his dreams in his son."

See http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfait...aming.html

As can be seen (from my example too), it's easy to produce quotes supporting particular positions rather than engaging in considered debates.

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