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Traffic calming for rat run on Devonshire Rd
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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #21
22-04-2010 08:36 AM

Someone may be able to report where the speed measuring strips were laid. I would expect the measurements to have been taken well away from the ends of the road where they would sit under traffic jams.

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #22
22-04-2010 09:42 PM

with regards to the idea that people on Devonshire rd should have the final say as it is them who may be inconvenienced by traffic restrictions I have a few points to float.......
Many people on Devonshire Rd will not be car drivers.
Many car drivers/owners on devonshire rd will commute by foot/bus or train on a daily basis and will not use their car everyday.
Many car drivers/owners on devonshire may be happy to trade restrictions for a quieter rd and safer parking.
People living on Ewelme rd, Benson Rd, Tyson rd, Dunoon Rd and closes leading off them etc, will also be affected and may be inconvenienced by restrictions or may benefit from less traffic/pollution etc.
Many non drivers may appreciate being able to walk to their nearest train station at peak commuting times down a road with little through traffic unlike the present situation where they have a choice of Honor Oak rd or Devonshire rd both of which are busy.
The figures of average speed do not strike me as something to be pleased about. I am not sure why they are presented in the form of what 85% of drivers do. Perhaps we should be worried that so many are driving at 24mph in a zone where the legal speed limit is 20mph, exceeding it by 20%. I wonder if this is different to exceeding a 30mph by 20%. Perhaps we should be told how many drivers exceed the speed limit.
I notice there was a traffic census some time ago on Devonshire rd. Have the results been made public to tell us how many journeys along Devonshire rd are made by residents?

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shaman


Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #23
23-04-2010 09:24 AM

andrewr wrote:
Blocking right turns might be helpful at the South Circular end but would be very inconvenient for residents wanting to leave the road at Honor Oak Park.


We have lived in Forest Hill since mid November and my fiancee has already had two incidents as a cyclist, involving cars turning right across her path from Devonshire Road into the south circular, the second of which involved the vehicle running into the side of her! How you pull out of a junction into the side of a cyclist I will never know. I presume it involves not looking.

It seems that having lights on and dayglo clothing on doesn't make a difference, as (I imagine) car drivers are focusing far more on what is happening in the lane into which they are turning.

It's really knocked her confidence, particularly as she was already wary of the junction after the first near miss.

Whatever happens with this road, as things stand it looks like a terrible junction to allow right turns out of that increases the likelihood that another cyclist will be hit. This is the only way through unless you are able to carry a bike through the underpass afaik or prepared to break the law and use the pavement.

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FHSoc


Posts: 134
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #24
23-04-2010 10:16 AM

tripandfuschia

The report to which andrewr refers was the survey taken before the 20 MPH zone was introduced, Lewisham will repeat the survey in three years when the 20 MPH Zone comes up for review.

shaman

Were the police involved in either incident? I will pass these concerns on to TfL

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #25
23-04-2010 10:19 AM

I absolutely agree with tripandfuschia's comments about the views of non-drivers and those in adjacent roads being of importance and also those of shaman on the hazards of the right turn out of Devonshire onto the SC. However, I think it is unrealistic to expect Devonshire Road to become a quiet backwater - unless people can be forced out of their cars, that could only be achieved by a significant increase in traffic elsewhere. Is that reasonable for the people who live on the roads that will see an increase in traffic?

Apparently traffic analysts always use the 85 percentile traffic speed figure on the grounds that:

The 'tail' of vehicles in the top 15% inevitably includes erroneous readings and also the relatively few vehicles that will not be slowed down, whatever restrictions are in place. By looking at the speeds recorded of the slowest 85% a more realistic view is obtained of normal traffic speeds.

Note that the 85% figure is the speed that 85% of vehicles are going slower than. It does not tell you what the average speed is. In principle it would be possible (if unlikely) for only one vehicle of the 85% to be doing 24mph whilst all others are below 20mph, but still to have an 85%ile speed of 24mph!

We may not be happy that many drivers exceed the speed limits by a margin, but it is, for the moment an accepted fact of life in the UK. In a 30mph zone it is extremely unlikely that you will be prosecuted for doing up to 36mph - a similar margin to 24 mph in a 20 zone.

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #26
23-04-2010 10:22 AM

Shaman - I hope your fiancee is ok and that confidence returns soon. I'm a fellow cyclist and the Devonshire Road/south circular junction is one of the many on the stretch of road from the Horniman down to Perry Vale that gives me jitters every evening on the way home.

Many drivers simply don't realise that cyclists are actually moving pretty quickly and so they think they can make it across the road before we get there. I usually adopt a central position on that stretch of road so that I can take evasive action if I have to after so many near misses.

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Cidered


Posts: 50
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #27
23-04-2010 11:45 AM

No excuses for motorists not looking out for bikes/motorbikes, but pulling out of Devonshire Road, trying to turn right onto the South Circular is a nightmare. One side-effect is that it probably dissuades some drivers from using Devonshire Road as a rat-run, as they have to wait in a queue to get onto the S. Circular.

As a Devonshire Road resident at the Honor Oak end of the street, one observation about the 20 mph zone is that it isn't well signed. For example, turning left into Devonshire Road from Honor Oak Park there's a 20mph marking on the road and a small 20mph sign but that's it. A few more 20mph road markings wouldn't go amiss. Nor would some enforcement. Most the cars passing my flat are moving at a reasonable speed but roughly 1 in 10 or so are probably doing double the 20mph limit.

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shaman


Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #28
23-04-2010 12:07 PM

Thanks for the comments. She is fine, but she hates that junction. And the right-hand turn at the lights on the way up through Forest Hill towards the Horniman. And the right hand turn after the bridge on the way down past the Devonshire Road junction. She was quite lucky not to be pushed right across into oncoming traffic.

She usually rides the cycle routes and backstreets, but can't really avoid this section. And she wasn't going very fast, even down the hill.

I'm a pretty confident rider, but that whole section from the traffic lights by the station to the right hand turn under the bridge is definitely very dangerous for cyclists.

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AMFM


Posts: 306
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #29
23-04-2010 12:21 PM

Shaman - couldn't agree more about those junctions - I mostly cycle the back streets too but it's difficult to avoid the section on the South Circular from the Horniman down to the railway bridge - I think it says something that I find the Old Kent Road and navigating the Bricklayers Arms roundabout a pleasure compared to that short stretch of road!

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #30
23-04-2010 07:42 PM

Fhsoc thanks for clarifying the figures. do you have knowledge of the traffic census which was undertaken? I still find it a concern that 15% were travelling over 20% over the speed limit.
Shortly after the 20 mph zone was initiated we had a leaflet from the council explaining that the speed bumps in Tyson rd and Dunoon Rd needed to be reviewed. Apparently this is because drivers were exceeding the 20 mph ( before the zone was introduced ) From my observations I am convinced drivers go far faster along parts of Devonshire rd than they do on Dunoon or Tyson rd where speed humps appear closer and fiercer than the newly replaced Devonshire rd ones. I'm not sure I believe the figures from my own experiences. Any one else have a view?
I was told that the speed humps on Dunoon rd and Tyson would be replaced in order that the 20mph zone be enforced.
Nothing has happened.
It seemed very odd to me at the time to single out these two roads, as being the roads with the problem of speeding and it seems even odder that the council had not acted if it feels there is a problem.
Re the signage of the 20 mph zone, a lot of effort seems to have been put in recently lowering kerbs for pedestrians at all the entances to the zone. Perhaps raising the road to the level of the pavements creating a bump for drivers at the entrances to the zone, and a potential right of way for pedestrains would have been wiser. In Southwark the roadsare often a different colour for the initial 10 feet or so of a 20 mph zone.
Shaman sorry to hear your news.

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #31
26-04-2010 02:51 PM

tripandfuschia, I've requested more details of the Devonshire Road traffic count from my contact at the Council. Will post key info here when I get it.

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #32
26-04-2010 05:47 PM

Thanks!!

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #33
27-04-2010 07:22 PM

Summary of information received from Lewisham Council with percentage analysis by me:

Traffic was counted 'in the middle of Devonshire Road' - ie not where it would be slowed by queues.

The traffic count was undertaken from 26 June - 3 July 2009.

Total number of vehicles counted, 10449 northbound and 10538 southbound.

Northbound -
54.1%<20 mph, 94.5%<25mph, 99.4%<30mph. Just 5 vehicles (0.02%) over 40mph - and they could be counting errors. Mean speed 19.6mph with 85% under 22.8mph.

Southbound
36.2%<20 mph, 85.1%<25mph, 98.5%<30mph. Only 1 vehicle over 40mph - and that was apparently doing more than 60mph at around 8am so is almost certainly an error! Mean speed 21.2mph with 85% under 24.8mph.

My observation would be that most drivers are close to, or a little above the 20mph speed limit with drivers tending to speed more when travelling southbound. Bear in mind that speeds would have been measured at the fastest point in the road.

Very few drivers are doing more than 30mph and virtually none 'twice the speed limit'.

Banning the right turn into the South Circular would be a matter for TfL and would, apparently, require extensive consultation in surrounding streets. My limited observation is that few vehicles actually make this right turn but they cause chaos, and hazards, in doing so. The views of others on this would be very welcome.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #34
27-04-2010 07:52 PM

Yesterday I managed to cause both chaos and hazards in turning right into Devonshire - unintentionally of course but I held up traffic which would have gone round to London Road as I proceeded a little more cautiously than other cars would have liked and waited for a clear break in the traffic before turning. I then didn't get very far as the gap were too narrow to proceed so a car was stuck right behind me blocking the eastern side of the south circ so nothing could move anywhere. So I've probably proved to myself and a handful of others how much of a hazard turning right is in the rush hour! The speeds at that time are not an issue but the congestion caused certainly is real. I do sometimes just go on up to HOR and turn right there rather than run the gauntlet of south circ traffic on the right turn- it really doesn't take that much longer. This turning really is a hazard- its actually easier to do in the rush hour due to the traffic being a little slower but it causes so much hassle for everyone its surely not worth having. I would be affected if it were restricted but to be honest I wouldn't really object at all as its six of one, etc.

Does anyone know of any precedent for a time restricted turning anywhere in the UK? Might be the ideal solution for here if its feasible.

I witnessed a policeman in a high viz jacket nearly being run over this morning as a commercial vehicle refused to stop for him on Sydenham Hill. Doesn't give the rest of us much hope.

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #35
27-04-2010 08:02 PM

There certainly are turnings where the no right turn sign is only illuminated at certain times. The right turn from the South Circular into Hither Green Lane always used to be banned in the peak periods although it doesn't seem to be at the moment. The problem is that it is difficult to enforce this sort of ban.

If there is room, the best way to block right turns into and out of Devonshire Road would be to install a central island. However, the road is pretty narrow there and there might not be room. Having seen what people do to get into Wood Vale, I wouldn't be too surprised to see people doing U turns at the traffic lights to get into Devonshire Road if they were blocked by an island!

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michael


Posts: 3,227
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #36
27-04-2010 08:30 PM

While we are stopping right turns in/out of Devonshire Road could we do the same with David's Road and the exit from the station?

The exit from the station is particularly annoying as cars need to cross two lanes of traffic and usually push their way out just as the lights change to green.

Personally I always liked the right turn into Devonshire as it does avoid three sets of traffic lights for people living between Devonshire and Wood Vale. However, I have not used this turning since I moved house over 2 years ago, and since then I believe that the timing of the traffic lights through Forest Hill has improved (when traffic is actually moving).

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #37
27-04-2010 08:36 PM

I agree a solution needs to be found for both Davids and the station, not sure if a no right turn would help there as there are boundless destinations from both of those points. I thought there was a box junction outside the station- is it still there and/or are drivers just ignoring it. ( I can;t remember seeing one so I'm probably ignoring it too).
Turning right out of Davids is a considerable hazard all round.

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andrewr


Posts: 296
Joined: May 2006
Post: #38
27-04-2010 09:06 PM

No box junction outside the station visible in Google Streetview.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #39
27-04-2010 09:07 PM

I'm sure there was one- the then Cllr Peter Dawson got one installed I think? Perhaps they used cheap paint and it got washed away!

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michael


Posts: 3,227
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #40
27-04-2010 10:06 PM

No box junction - there is a keep clear sign on the entrance to the station, but not the exit, which is right in front of the traffic lights.

There is no reason why anybody (other than ambulances) should turn right out of David's Road, all destination are available via Waldenshaw Road.

Ideally the station car park would be closed and the Perry Vale car park would be used for drop off at the station. A shame the lift is at the wrong end of the platform, but at least there is a lift.

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