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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #61
01-05-2010 06:51 PM

jon14 -- you can find lots of information on the history of religions on the internet, a good starting point might be the Wikipedia entry, or in books like Karen Armstrong's The Case for God.

However given you reject all the evidence for the universe being older than 10,000 years in favour of your interpretation of your version of the Bible (the one with the unicorns if I recall correctly), I'm sure you'll have no problem rejecting any evidence for religions prior to Christianity, or whatever else doesn't match with your personal beliefs.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #62
01-05-2010 07:20 PM

That wikipedia page proves my point. If you look past the monkey-come-man funeral bit, earliest RECORDED history very recent, about 10,000 years or less.

Even Karen Armstrong can only get back as long as 30,000 years ago. But much of the stuff pre 10,000 years ago is supposition and not actually recorded history.

I think you accuse me of something that you do yourself. I come up with an argument, you go to Google and pull of the first thing you find to support your case.

Here's a question. Why if the earth is 13 billion years old have we only got recorded history for about 10,000 years?

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #63
01-05-2010 08:21 PM

Well that is debatable Jon14 unless you still are arguing the creation thing. There is very firm evidence of Hinduism going back 5000 to 6000 years in a very similar form to now let alone what was there before and there are links between Tibetan Buddhism, Bon, and Asian Shamanism which some see as going back 40,000 years to around the time modern humans appear to begin using rituals ( Leaving aside the neanderthal burials with flowers and shells). There is the belief of an earlier Buddha. I guess you think adam and Eve were there first?

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #64
01-05-2010 09:40 PM

Absolutely, I do. And I wouldn't be surprised if Hinduism dated back to 6,000 years b.c. But much 'evidence' pre 6,000 years b.c isn't tangible or corroborated. Much of the Biblical evidence is corroborated by other sources.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #65
02-05-2010 10:52 AM

Robin Orton Wrote:
On a factual point, the mayoral hustings (Tuesday 4th May, 7.30pm at The Salvation Army Hall, 25, Brownhill Road, Catford) is being organised not by Churches Together in Sydenham and Forest Hill - it is a pan-borough event - but by the Lewisham Borough Deans.


Robin,
Will this hustings again be primarily focused on issues of faith and morality, like the hustings in Forest Hill?
Will there be prayers at the beginning?
Will the debate be chaired by Jon14?

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Foresters


Posts: 207
Joined: May 2006
Post: #66
02-05-2010 12:25 PM

There should have been a hustings at the Hob

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #67
02-05-2010 12:43 PM

I have not personally been involved in organizing the mayoral hustings - I think Nigel Desborough, who I believe is currently chair of the Lewisham Borough Deans (as well as of Churches Together in Sydenham and Forest Hill) has been in the lead. Indeed, I understand that he rather than Jon14 (I know Michael will find this disappointing!) is to chair the hustings.

I'm afraid I don't know the answers to Michael's other questions.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #68
02-05-2010 01:20 PM

Foresters,
If there was a hustings at the Hob they should ask all the candidates and audience to have a pint before the event. Apparently that would be reasonable, even if some of the audience are teetotal.

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Foresters


Posts: 207
Joined: May 2006
Post: #69
02-05-2010 01:37 PM

The Library then, perhaps?

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #70
02-05-2010 02:11 PM

Not to get into a Creationism debate but there are San rock paintings of humans/animals in South Africa that have been dated to be 80,000 years old. And given that their later paintings show British soldiers and locomotives starting to arrive in their country at the appropriate juncture, you can argue that those older paintings are a valid form of recorded history.

And while there is some historical back up for Biblical events (e.g the great flood), you really do start having to twist geological facts etc to make a 6 day creation process work. I will happily accept that Christians believe in the Creation story as a matter of faith with the 6 days perhaps as an allegory of time but it's not scientifically valid any more than the Hindu creation story of Vishnu and Brahma and shouldn't be used to dismiss other religions beliefs..

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #71
02-05-2010 02:12 PM

As I recall, religion came in quite useful during the Thatcher years; didnt she get an earful from Mother Teresa?

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Perryman


Posts: 810
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #72
02-05-2010 02:26 PM

What drink pre-dates beer?

An interesting parallel, as it roots go way back to 6-8000bce.
It had a totally different name and different key ingredients, but that, of course, is not that important.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #73
02-05-2010 02:37 PM

I've just noticed that Alex Feakes is standing both for Councillor and for MP. This may be entirely legal, but if he is indeed as confident in securing victory in the Westminster elections as he purports to be in his electoral communications then this seems a little odd, and with a potential cost to the public purse if another byelection has to take place shortly afterwards to fill a council seat.

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #74
02-05-2010 03:06 PM

Quote:
If there was a hustings at the Hob they should ask all the candidates and audience to have a pint before the event. Apparently that would be reasonable, even if some of the audience are teetotal.


Ah, but one or more of the candidates might be teetotal 'for religious reasons' (ie because some parasite in a funny hat has told them that a fictional being has said that they have to be), in which case we'd all have to 'respect' that.





[/quote]

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #75
02-05-2010 03:59 PM

I wondere why you asked the original question jon14 if you know the answer ?

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #76
02-05-2010 05:56 PM

I've just noticed that Alex Feakes is standing both for Councillor and for MP. This may be entirely legal, but if he is indeed as confident in securing victory in the Westminster elections as he purports to be in his electoral communications then this seems a little odd, and with a potential cost to the public purse if another byelection has to take place shortly afterwards to fill a council seat.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #77
02-05-2010 06:23 PM

I don't know what Alex's plans are should he win both elections, but it is possible for somebody to be both a councillor and an MP (although it is unusual and byelections often follow).

But the cost of a council byelection is less than the cost of a parliamentary by-election, as we had when Tony Blair left the role of both PM and MP, he did not need to force a byelection. And then there was David Davis, who called a really pointless byelection and stood for re-election.

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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #78
02-05-2010 11:05 PM

It sounds to me as if he is hedging his bets - if he doesn't win as MP, at least he will still be a Cllr. Leaves a bit of a sour taste, as far as I am concerned.

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #79
03-05-2010 03:27 PM

I think if he has served as a councillor and put effort into that position, then he should be able to stand as an MP without forfeiting his role as a councillor if he is not successful.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #80
03-05-2010 06:16 PM

Fine but it doesn't convey a sense of conviction that he is going to win the Westminster election- just the opposite. I'd say exactly the same re anyone from any other party.

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