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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #41
30-04-2010 03:55 PM

But Jews and Muslims are not allowed to describe themselves as 'Abrahamic'? In fact I would suggest that it is Christians that are not Abrahamic.

To me 'Abrahamic' refers to the convenant between God and Abraham:
Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you....14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

In this way most Christians opt out of the Abrahamic covernant. Abraham would not approve of this behaviour by most Christians who have broken his covernant with his God.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #42
30-04-2010 04:15 PM

Circumcision was applied to all Abraham's children, regardless of whether they loved and believed in God or not. Isaac did, Ishmael didn't. Circumcision was prescribed to all ethnic Jews until the Messaih should come. It was prescribed to show that the Saviour would be born of a women and to encourage people to look to Abraham, who was a man of faith.

Now that Chrsit has come, literal circumcision has ceased.

As the Bible says in the New Testament: 'For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That covenant between God and Abraham ceased, which is why we opt out.

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clairet


Posts: 2
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #43
30-04-2010 04:34 PM

Quote:
a religion depends entirely about what it says about Christ.


This will be a surprise to non-Christian religions, particularly those which predated Christianity. It's a view which probably tells you all you need to know about the value of debating anything with the writer.

It also illustrates why I think the mixture of religion and politics is, and almost always has been, a disaster for humanity.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #44
30-04-2010 04:37 PM

What religion pre-dates Christianity?

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #45
30-04-2010 04:47 PM

That's fine. I respect your decision, but not to be circumsised, but if you believe the covenant between God and Abraham ceased then I suggest you are no longer part of the Abrahamic convernant.

Quote:
It was prescribed to show that the Saviour would be born of a women and to encourage people to look to Abraham, who was a man of faith.

That is not what is says in Genesis. It was not the bargain Abraham made.

Being part of an 'Abrahamic faith' has nothing to do with acceptance of Jesus, although if anything it might just rule you out, not Jews and Muslims.

It is another shame that the Christianisation of the general election debate has led you to try to exclude so many people from their heritage. It is another reason why I wish people would keep religion and politics seperate wherever possible.

Unfortunately the only debate for mayoral candidate in Lewisham is organised by the same organisation of Churches and I expect there will be a Christian ethos, including prayer, so I will not be attending. But I don't think I would have found out much about swimming pools and trains, only about how often the candidates go to church.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #46
30-04-2010 04:54 PM

What bargain did Abraham make? I am no longer part of that specific Abrahamic covenant. Nobody is. In Christ, 'there is no longer Jew or Greek'. In God's eyes, we are all the same.

Abraham had faith in Jesus. I don't have a problem with people associating themselves with Abraham if they want to, but they should at least be honest and admit that they don't share his faith in Jesus.

Apart from Jesus, 'Abrahamic faith' means nothing. Faith in what? Himself?

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Perryman


Posts: 810
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #47
30-04-2010 05:47 PM

Quote:
What religion pre-dates Christianity?


Hinduism. That did not take much research.

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Foresters


Posts: 207
Joined: May 2006
Post: #48
30-04-2010 07:25 PM

Admin,

Any chance of re-naming this thread.

I do think, though thaat there shoulld be a general election thread to discus less specifically directed comment.

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #49
30-04-2010 09:19 PM

I think Buddhism predates Christianity too, the Buddha lived about 500 years before Christ was born.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #50
30-04-2010 09:31 PM

Surely Judaism predates Christianity, unless the concept of 'Judaism' really only became defineable by the existence of Christianity, in which case they would have 'commenced' at the same time. If you know what I mean.

I've always found it difficult that religion especially Christianity and the Church of England always played such a prominent role in British politics even in these more enlightened times.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #51
01-05-2010 11:46 AM

The God of the Bible pre dates every other God, because He created the world. Christ, as God, existed before the world began.

Hinduism and Buddhism don't even claim to believe in a God of creation, so how they can pre-date the Creator is beyond me!

In a sense, Judaism and Christianity commenced at the same time, but in the old testament they weren't two different religions. Only when Christ came was the distinction made. Now, they're two very different things.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #52
01-05-2010 11:47 AM

And I'm always intrigued about why we are now 'more enlightened'? As far as I can see, we degenerate more and more as time goes on, coming now to the point where freedom of speech is in jeopardy.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #53
01-05-2010 12:37 PM

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Unfortunately the only debate for mayoral candidate in Lewisham is organised by the same organisation of Churches


On a factual point, the mayoral hustings (Tuesday 4th May, 7.30pm at The Salvation Army Hall, 25, Brownhill Road, Catford) is being organised not by Churches Together in Sydenham and Forest Hill - it is a pan-borough event - but by the Lewisham Borough Deans.

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Perryman


Posts: 810
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #54
01-05-2010 01:44 PM

So we have Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, all older than Christianity.

There is Zoroastrianism too and these are just some of the older religions that are still practised.

Sumerian religion is no longer practised but many of its stories are found in the newer religions so perhaps is still relevant.
That goes back to 5000 bce and prehistory.

Never mind, Christianity seems to be older than Islam, not that that fact makes it any more valid.

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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #55
01-05-2010 03:38 PM

jon14 -- from what I remember from our previous conversations, you believe that the universe is no more than 10,000 years old. I find it ironic that you claim the oldest religion when there is evidence of religious practices pre-dating that by tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, in a universe that appears to be over 13,700,000,000 years old.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #56
01-05-2010 03:55 PM

What evidence?

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tripandfuschia


Posts: 68
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #57
01-05-2010 04:12 PM

you are right Jon14 that Buddhists do not believe in a parent figure Sky God, I was suggesting Buddhism was older than Christianity taking the Buddha as the founder of Buddhism who lived 500 years before Christ who I took as the founder of Christianity. If you believe that everything was created by God, who himself does not have a creation, but has always been, then I guess you have the upper hand in claiming your religion as the oldest ( even if there were no people around to worship him) I take it your question....which religion is older than Christianity? was not a question you really needed help in answering?

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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #58
01-05-2010 04:20 PM

What evidence is there for the universe being older than 10,000 years?
http://LetMeGoogleThatForYou.com/?q=evid...e+universe

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #59
01-05-2010 05:41 PM

No Russ B, we've had that discussion before. You were stating that there is evidence of religious practices pre-dating 10,000 years by tens if not hundreds of thousands of years.

Not true. Googling 'evidence for the age of the universe' just takes you to lots of cosmology sites.

Fact is, for an earth that is 13 billion years old, we only have recorded history of about 10,000 years, which I think is not believable.

If the Bible is correct, you'd expect recorded history to begin in Egypt and the middle east and Egypt. And I think it does.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #60
01-05-2010 05:50 PM

Perryman Wrote:
So we have Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, all older than Christianity.

There is Zoroastrianism too and these are just some of the older religions that are still practised.

Sumerian religion is no longer practised but many of its stories are newer religions so perhaps is still relevant.
That goes back to 5000 bce and prehistory.

Never mind, Christianity seems to be older than Islam, not that that fact makes it any more valid.


The mistake you make is to think that Christianity started at 0 b.c. I can understand why you might think that and in a sense it's true, that's when followers of Christ started to be called Christians. The fundamental belief of Christians is that the only way to heaven is through a saviour. That's the message of the old testament from start to finish. The Jewish people in the Old Testament were being taught this by God. So Christianity has its roots firmly in Genesis.

Hinduism and Buddhism come well after earliest Biblical history.

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