Children in most mainland European countries do seem much better behaved when out with their parents.
Perhaps some of us are less tolerant to badly behaved parents and offspring but have no problem with well behaved ones.

Planning guidance on the impact of nurseries on local amenity in England is rather thin on the ground. However, the Planning Service for Northern Ireland has considered the issue in some depth and their advice can be found here. In this context, it should be noted that the application is for 24 children plus the applicant's own, soon to be, three children, and that the garden is within 2.5 metres of the habitable rooms of both immediate neighbours. Although the property has been extended into the roof, it is basically a three bedroom house. Is the situation in Northern Ireland so very different?

Material planning considerations are one thing, but in this case they seem to have got a little lost amongst other issues raised by local residents as portrayed in the list of objections which does seem to create an anti child sentiment, ie sound of young children playing, drop in property prices. The latter is probably the most chronically untrue given the pressure on FH property, especially on the hill and the former just has a difficult ring to it.

As far as I can recall, there is considerably less development pressure in Northern Ireland compared to London, and also there doesn't appear to be the baby boom and hence demand in childcare places that there is here.

I would have thought that the appropriateness of numbers of children in any setting would be more in Ofsted's remit rather than plannings.

LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING YOUR WAY ROZ! I KNOW WHEN I'M BEATEN!! I'M NOT A BAD LOOSER'SO GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR(NOT SO) LITTLE MONEY SPINNER! TIGGYWINKLE (MRS).

I don't have a view on the merits of this planning application but it doesn't do Lewisham's Planning Department any credit to see that it has taken them eight months to come up with a recommendation. In the meantime the business has operated without planning permission. Doesn't that send out the wrong message to anyone thinking of ignoring the planning laws?

I got a bit mixed up when reading the report as to whether or not the nursery even needed planning permission given the numbers of children and staff?

Woody
I could be wrong but I think it already has permission for the smaller number that they take at the moment.

Tis a very long time to make a decision though. It probably does mean they were trying to reconcile the various views and opinions about it.

I don't know if this application has been granted yet, but I would comment as follows.

First, I think the debate about having children playing nearby is not the fundamental reason why residents are up in arms about this application.

If for a moment we cut through all the child based issues that have been debated (for and against) and look at the bare bones, what we are left with is an application to run/expand a business in a residential area – and (whisper it) you expand a business to make more money.

Yes, there is indeed a dire shortage of nursery places in the FH area and yes, I have no doubt that the applicant’s intention to provide a first class nursery with the children’s best interests and welfare at heart, is an honest one – but if there’s one thing that irks the neighbours more than the sound of noisy children, slamming car doors and inconsiderate parking, it’s when someone else stands to make financial gain because of it – and I can sympathise with that.

Second, anyone can become a nimby and since it is often viewed to be some sort of disease, I would point out that just like a disease, there is usually a cause. In fact all it takes to change a perfectly liberal minded person into a nimby is a planning notification from the council through the letterbox – and the whole reason for providing a planning notice is so that residents likely to be affected can comment and quite rightly object, should they so wish.

Well put Triangle.
Although personally I do think the house does seem quite close to Neighbours and a business of that size could cause annoyance to retired persons who are wanting a relatively quite life on a side street.
This is NOT being anti children . The neighbours are entitled to object and hopefully The Council will take their views into consideration.
This is a very large number of persons to be crammed into a 3 bed room house.

Granted but it surely is a matter of degree and extent and also how much people feel an entitlement that their residential area should be safeguarded at all costs to the exclusion of other uses.
In mainland Europe there is a greater emphasis on mixed use neighbourhoods and this is taken for granted. The planners have taken the view that whilst there may be some change to traffic and increased footfall, this would have minimal disruptive effect as there is effectively so little going on there already. I used to walk around there even at school rush hour times and always noticed how remarkably quiet it was. It was lovely however whether residents are permanently entitled to such loveliness is a moot point. The proposed use is surely one of the less obnoxious uses that could ever be proposed in such an environment. You could get someone wanting to open up a homeless hostel up there or a bed and breakfast; both legitimate reasons. Is a nursery therefore not better welcomed with open arms for that reason as to an extent its very existence might protect the area against a more challenging one.

Childcare is also a business yes but really only due to the lack of other supported options. There are a few childrens centres which also operate as a nursery offering subsidised places but they are few and far between.
There are so many demands on childcare settings these days that there are substantial fixed costs regardless of the size of the business so it makes economic and financial sense to expand and increase income. I see nothing wrong with making money this way and do not begrudge anyone a healthy profit providing standards of service are up to scratch. Sometimes you have to expand a business in order to stand still actually.

The fact that there is a demonstrated social need should also be taken into account. I met people at the weekend who said they were paying £80 a day for a child in North London compared to £55-£65 in Forest Hill. We personally could not afford that level and hence both of us could not afford to work which in the long run would open families to greater risk of unemployment and financial distress as it really is not ideal these days to have one parent permanently out of paid employment. Prices aren;t at that level in FH but they could be if demand greatly exceeds supply, which is the way it is going.

GBP 400.00 a week for childcare in North London. What a great business to be in , surely Eton cheaper.
Even if 1 adult to every 5 children ( could be 7 or 10 but surely not below 5 ) then say each adult could get GBP 1600 .00 a week leaving GBP 400.00 for profit and books etc.

The cost of nursery and childcare is high but the economics are not as simple as you make out Brian. My son went to a popular FH nursery a few years ago and we were paying about £55 a day which was above average at the time. I did some simple maths about the business' income and expenditure and I struggled to see where the profit was made after staff costs (even at minimum wage - and believe me, I'd want someone to be motivated by a higher salary if they were looking after kids), catering, rents, rates, bills, maintenance, etc.

I'd like to think that the nature of the business and its impact is considered in the planning application. I suspect something like an MOT shop or builders merchants wouldn't have been allowed but that the committee assessed the impact of the nursery to be minor. It seems the worst of it is noise and inconvenience around cars and parking. The planning committee are insisting on a 'travel plan' which should help improve this if it is a significant problem. They also put quite restrictive conditions on the use of the garden to head off any noise issues.

Personally I'd rather live next door to the Liphook Crescent nursery with the restrictions and controls on its use than to a communal glass recycling bin and its 24hr potential to annoy with loud smashing.

The planning committee met yesterday to decide on this application and approved it, as recommended by the planning officers.

I'm sure that this nursery will be a great asset for the area and will even enhance house prices in Upper Dulwich Bottom!

I don't think this nursery thinks about the welfare of the children. In the first place a house of 3 rooms has more than 30 people within comprising of adults and children. The impression is that under such circumstances of overcrowding the trick would be having the children all day outdoors. On the 11/11 at about 9:45, 5 carers took the children out under such terrible weather with the children crying all the way. I believe they are taken to the garden nearby all day. The same thing happened on the 18/11 around 5 pm in the total darkness with the children crying and coughing. I think this has an emotional impact on the neighbourhood.

I'm not exactly sure what you are implying in your post. The children were probably going out perhaps to the Horniman where they often have morning events for local children. is that what you mean when you say ' the garden nearby'? You do give the impression that they are all tied up to a garden fence all day or something of that ilk. The fact that the weather may have been terrible is irrelevant. Unless there was a snowstorm or a child is ill,it is perfectly acceptable for children to go out in all weathers if suitably dressed. My children do and have done so from an early age. Children do so all the time, when their parents are taking older children to and from school at fixed times, etc. Flexi time isn;t really an option for school age children. At most nurseries and childminders I have used they do the same which is why spare changes of clothes are usually requested as are spare indoor shoes to change into.
I would imagine that at 5pm, the children were actually going home? Crying and coughing is also not that unusual. I live on a popular walking route to two local schools. There is considerable ' child noise' at certain times, including tantrums, tears and whatever, but that is surely life? I doubt whether it has an as you call it, an 'emotional impact' on the neighbourhood.

As I said before, material planning impact of any decision is something everyone has a right to raise, but some of the issues raised by local residents in this area are coming across as more than a little strange.

Nice? I think you ought to change your username.

I don't think you have any interest in the welfare of the children you mention. The premises is occupied to levels within the stipulations of OFSTED and is supported by Lewisham's planning department. Looking at the floor plan it has at least as much space per child/adult as the nurseries I've visited in commercial premises and more than those that were in other converted residential premises.

You give the impression that you have the nursery, its staff and children under surveillance both at the premises and when they are off-site. That is behaviour that some might find odd and disturbing.

If you don't like having a new nursery in your area why not come on here and say it in plain English. People may or may not agree with you but you'll probably feel better for getting it out in the open.

I haven't checked this website in a while but I see that this planning permission was granted. That's great news. Many congratulations to the owner of this wonderful new business.

There were some concerns on this thread that no Ofsted inspection had taken place. Piplings has now had its first Ofsted inspection and you can read the report on their website: http://piplingsnursery.com/
It was rated 'outstanding' in every single area that was judged.

Congratulations to the team at Piplings.

And I should declare an interest, my daughter has been very happy attending this nursery for the last few months, and we didn't need an Ofsted report to tell us that this really is a very good nursery.

Unfortunately parents have been informed this week that Piplings in Liphook Crescent will be closing and places for some of the children will be made available by the owners, but in East Dulwich.

Although planning permission had been given last year by Lewisham council, there was a restrictive covenant dating from when the houses were built that forbids any commercial activities (apart from doctors and solicitors) from being carried out in most houses in the surrounding streets. Neighbours, backed by the Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents Association, took the nursery to court to enforce this restrictive covenant.

There are currently 100 other businesses registered and run from properties in the Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents Association area. The action against one business (the first use of these covenant of which I am aware) potentially has implications for the 100 other houses in the area which are used for commercial activities in one shape or form.

I'm very sad that such a good nursery has been forced to close down and I know it will be difficult for local parents to find another local nursery with all 17 measures judged outstanding in their OFSTED rating.

I'm very sad that such a fantastic nursery is being forced to closed, and angry and frustrated by the actions of the residents association in supporting a couple of residents in this action, without informing other residents in the area, on which the action has arguably a more detrimental effect.

If the covenant were being written today, I'm sure that day nursery would have been listed as one of the businesses that would be suitable. The nursery certainly causes a lot less disturbance that say, a doctor's surgery would in the same place (which would be admissable). This action seems to be very short sighted as the community as a whole will be losing a sorely needed local resource, which is also an outstanding (as confirmed by ofsted), calm and caring place for our local children to attend.

I'm sure that the other businesses in the area have little to fear, as in the most part the neighbourhood is a friendly place, with everyone co-existing happily.