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Fares increases
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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #21
17-10-2009 07:54 PM

Michael
Children travelling to school if school over 2 miles away I accept.Used to be 3 in my day.
Daily see young ladies at Sainsbury stocking up with cakes and pies then boaring bus to Sydenham School. 7 or so mins walk at most.
Travelling by bus from 3.15 ish to 5 ish is to be avoided it at possible. The top decks especially.
I agree they should not be travelling by car or bus ( accept over 2 miles ) they should be walking. Younger folk should frequent local educational establishments.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #22
17-10-2009 07:59 PM

Im glad we agree on certain aspects here. Due to certain things there IS a black hole appearing in funding, and its one that needs filling.
Taking the free fares away will make Boris unpopular, as has increasing fares.
Who knows , kids and OAP's might just be the next ones to be changed. I dont think its about guts for Boris, but more making the right choice at the right time.

I personally dont care about the increase, its really not going to cost me a fortune. I realise for others it will though.

Differential fares would make a big difference too, and I think its amazing how quickly people forget how much a zone 3-4 into zone 1 once used to cost. Now we are moaning about a small increase (in comparison)

lol @ Brown blaming Thatcher, I thought most serious Labour supporters still blame her for anything lol. (joking)
As for Boris blaming Ken, I think given the choices that were made by the previous administration, thats actually quite fair to do. Not flawless, but there is certainly some impact (as above)

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #23
17-10-2009 08:02 PM

Brian I have to agree, if I am travelling to Lewisham Hospital or similar I will always walk, have been known to walk to Waterloo and Vauxhall from time to time. Love a good walk.

Obviously a daily commute is a different animal, especially when its to Vauxhall lol. But being on a 185, its actually quite irritating to see seemingly able bodied people stop hopping. Old and young, just using their passes because they have them.

I dont like being on buses, and people who dont need to be on it, but are there for a few stops, and meaning people travelling a long distance have to wait for another bus annoys the hell out of me.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #24
17-10-2009 10:40 PM

Well said Michael!
They are unjustifiable increases in the current economic climate.

However, there probably is a gap in funding.
Morally, all the Boris voters should pay double bus fare, to help pay for his scrapping of the bendy buses and the labour voters should pay double tube fare to help pay for their Metronet PFI disaster. Sorted.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #25
17-10-2009 11:22 PM

Quote:
They are unjustifiable increases in the current economic climate.

However, there probably is a gap in funding.


Lovely contradiction as an opening lol.

So there is a gap in funding. Other than charging double to people who voted for Boris.... What serious suggestions do you have to plug the gap.

How about triple the fares of those who voted for Ken? The one who scrapped variable fares and kids fares?

Its all very well making the whole thing a political playground, but in reality there are financial matters to take care of to keep the buses and tubes running. So regardless of who did what, there is a pit that needs refilling with money. Answers on a postcard.

To say its bad timing as there is a recession...... Seriously people! Is that really a valid arguement?
Most of the people using buses daily either use it for free (paid for by the tax payer) or are commuting. And not many people I know took a pay cut, so 20p for a bus journey is really not breaking the bank for many commuters.

If we were talking a 20% rise in a ?500 a month rail ticket or something fair enough, but for those using a bus each way per day... its 40p more. ?2 a week, ?8 a month....

No one likes paying more for their journies, especially on the over crowded buses etc, but as I have already said, it used to cost more to travel a decent distance. I didnt hear too many complaints about fares being slashed. Or too many people giving any consideration to the long term effect on financial funding of the network.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #26
18-10-2009 09:46 AM

At present free tickets for Pensioners is British Law, whereas , as far as I know , handouts to kiddies are unique to Londinium.
As a rule pensioners behave well. Do not play so called music out loud and in most cases less able to walk than the kiddies.
Also kiddies very rarely seem to thank the driver either entering or alighting the omnibus.
I used the bus once or twice weekly to Lewisham Hospital until a few weeks ago but gave up at times when used by school children. Walking far more relaxing.
Also they could reintroduce doggie tickets, cannot believe they travel for free.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #27
18-10-2009 02:20 PM

Quote:
They are unjustifiable increases in the current economic climate.
However, there probably is a gap in funding.


No contradiction here as the gap in funding for the buses is due to the unjustifiable early scrapping of the bendy bus, and the expense of designing a completely new bus.

The gap in funding for the tube is due to Londoners having to pick up the bill for the Metronet disaster - a dodgy PFI deal which was forced on us and so not justifiable.

So the answer to this funding gap is to keep the bendy buses until they come to the end of their life, and for Boris to demand that the government pay for their own mistakes.

Changing the way people pay on the bus to prepay gave cost savings and sped up journey times. Some of the saving was passed back to the customers - I cant see the problem here.

Children travelling free is also a sensible solution to road gridlock in the morning. School buses are free in the US, so this is nothing too radical, (but providing separate buses must be quite expensive.)

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Applespider


Posts: 283
Joined: Feb 2006
Post: #28
18-10-2009 02:48 PM

Given that dogs don't take up a seat, I have no problem with them being free. Buggies take up more room and we don't expect people to pay for them.

Kids - I'd like to see them only free during the school commute rather than the rest of the time. Although unfortunately, I can't see a way of managing that along with stopping the one-stop brigade. Admittedly, there have been a few occasions where I've had a wry smile at a group of kids who have sprinted down the street to catch a bus only to get off it a stop or two later - why not save the running energy and walk a few extra hundred feet!

It used to be that fares had to be put up in large-ish % so that change was easier to give out - but with Oyster that's no longer the case - why can't an Oyster fare be ?1.18? Having said that, fares dropped drastically with the introduction of Oyster as an incentive to take it up - so it's not surprising that with such take-up, the fares start to rise again. It's still cheaper than it was pre-Oyster.

Overall, I think TfL's service (aside from the proposed railcuts due to ELL) is pretty good for the cash. I've lived in other UK cities where I'm often horrified at the poor level of service frequency for the costs involved.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #29
18-10-2009 04:46 PM

Could not agree more Applespider. On all points.

Perryman, I see the points you are making, however there is no denying the bendy buses are a nightmare and should never have appeared on most of the routes they have. Getting rid of them is without a doubt costly, but neccessary too.

I notice you dont make any mention of how much the drop in fares may have cost TfL, and what impact it may have had with financial blackhole. Im sure its a pretty large contributor.

Apple makes a good point that regardless of what factors people try and bring into the matter, London's buses are good value compared to other cities, and for people who travel long distances into town, great value compared to the old fares.

Amazing how quickly people forget how expensive buses were before. Cant have it both ways.

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Ex FH Pat


Posts: 112
Joined: Oct 2009
Post: #30
19-10-2009 09:36 AM

Then if there is a massive black hole in TFL finances, why does the Goverenmnet not shore it up like they did with all the big finance houses & bankers in the city who are now getting very nice big bonuses

Agree that whoemever wins the elections blames the previous one for all the woes - well unless it is the same party that wins the election

As the old saying goes, every generation blames the one before, now that the rsies have settled in - i think i now need to complain about the ultility bills, absurd prises for electric and gas or am i wrong again as i appear to be by all your threads with regards to TFL

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ryananglem


Posts: 167
Joined: Apr 2009
Post: #31
19-10-2009 09:51 AM

Snazy - it was only E.80 for a single anywhere on the (4 line) network. We did catch a commuter train out of Lisbon one day, and it was E1.70 for a 45 min journey (off peak).

They have a similar system to Oyster, called zapping for which a rechargable card can be purchased for .50

The stations are huge and easily cope with a full trainload exiting at the end of the line. I was impressed.

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Ex FH Pat


Posts: 112
Joined: Oct 2009
Post: #32
19-10-2009 01:40 PM

It used to be that fares had to be put up in large-ish % so that change was easier to give out - but with Oyster that's no longer the case - why can't an Oyster fare be ?1.18? Having said that, fares dropped drastically with the introduction of Oyster as an incentive to take it up - so it's not surprising that with such take-up, the fares start to rise again. It's still cheaper than it was pre-Oyster.

So with above - youa are saying that Oyster was all a con to get loads of people take it up, then hike the fares ??

As I said - one of the reasons that children use buses is bacause thay cannot get into their local schools due to the way the admissions are now done, maybe 2 miles is a far distance - why not only give kids who live more than 2 miles from their school free travel and issue them with passes and they only use them at times when they need to get to & from school, pensioners who work should also be exempt

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Dotcom


Posts: 39
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #33
20-10-2009 12:15 PM

'My daily journey is set to rise 20p each way, and if im honest I could not care less. 20p /20% whatever you want to call it is not gonna break the bank. Making it into a percentage is almost blowing it out of proportion.'

'Bus fares go up 20p... Quick batter the Tories even though they are not even in power lol. (Yes I know Boris is blue) '

Snazy, it must feel good not to care less about a 20% increase on your commute. Others will feel that pinch.

I'm sure people could take their time about battering the Tories as, if they do get in, and its not a foregone conclusion, there will be plenty of reasons to be 'battering' them in the fullness of time.

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Ex FH Pat


Posts: 112
Joined: Oct 2009
Post: #34
20-10-2009 01:09 PM

Well said dotcom - people must have short memories as when the tories were last in - 1979 - 1997 - i believe they were the worse years of my working life, all they care about is the rich - just like Boris, steal from the poor to help the rich

I agree that an extra 40p per day will not harm me that much however added to the electric/gas/water bills that have shot skywards, i think an extra ?8 per month for someone on low pay will hit very hard indeed, never mind all the old etonians are drinking their champers with the city boys

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #35
20-10-2009 01:20 PM

Quote:
Snazy, it must feel good not to care less about a 20% increase on your commute. Others will feel that pinch.


I would be interested to hear just how many people consider ?2 a week an unbareable increase.
My point is 20 PERCENT sounds drastic...... 20 pence, does not quite pack the same punch.

I realise that for people using multiple buses that the 20p multiplies etc, but in the grand scheme of things, ?1.00-?1.20 is still a tiny fee to pay to travel the distances that most commute.

Once again, I would encourage people to think back to before the flat rate fare. I didnt hear too many people complaining that it was a bad call to lower fares when we were in a financial boom and all earning so well. In general most medium/long distance routes are damn good value, even with the extra 20p on top.

Alcohol and cigarettes go up more than that annually, but after the moaning people still find the extra to keep poisoning and killing themselves, so im sure they will find the 20p per journey to earn the money to keep the booze and fags coming in.

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Ex FH Pat


Posts: 112
Joined: Oct 2009
Post: #36
20-10-2009 01:26 PM

Snazy - i do not smoke or drink - yet i chose to, then can have no moans when the cost goes up as smoking & driking are optional, travelling to work by bus./tube is not an option, it is essential - agree 20p does not sound much.

Surely the best time to raise the cost is when we are all swimming along on a crest of a wave not in the middle of a recession, i think that is what has goty a lot of peoples backs up, zero pay rise for most then get hit with this and then keep getting told by all Politicians - you need to tighten your belt to help us get past the recession

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Dotcom


Posts: 39
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #37
20-10-2009 02:05 PM

Snazy, you said 'I didnt hear too many people complaining that it was a bad call to lower fares when we were in a financial boom and all earning so well.'

Why would people who only have access to public transport (in so far as they can't afford to drive) complain when their costs are reduced?

Many low paid workers (and there are very many in this country) use public transport, many of them don't get much of an annual pay increase, if any. You can say what you like or try to justify it in what ever way you wish. You may be a higher earner, but ?2 will pinch on some people's budgets.

Personal attacks on people, ie whether they smoke or drink isn't really an intelligent argument.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #38
20-10-2009 02:36 PM

lol @ "personal attacks"
Im not making a personal attack on anyone, not got a clue who on here smokes or drinks.

The comment about people complaining about fares falling was tongue in cheek, in order to provoke a reaction, and maybe some realisation that fares FELL before rising. Therefore the rise is more like a return to where they have been before, rather than an unheard of, first time, ground breaking purse busting price.

I would not consider myself a "higher earner" for one second. But I do like to be realistic.

Im not snubbing anyone, but I will be interested to see if there are people out there that cannot afford the rise. At the end of the day, without the rise, service gets affected, and for regular commuters, I think its fair to say that a reduction in service would be terrible.

My daily journey is bad enough as it is, and the journey home almost brings a tear to my eye. But as I keep saying, its still great value for money.

I get the impression that this is in some way personal. At the end of the day, I dont really care about the rise, and think the whole thing is being blown completely out of proportion for the sake of making a fuss.
I feel for the people that the increase affects, but its hardly anything like the rises people travelling from Brighton daily faced a few years back, or any of the other long distance commuters.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #39
20-10-2009 02:46 PM

Quote:
Surely the best time to raise the cost is when we are all swimming along on a crest of a wave not in the middle of a recession, i think that is what has goty a lot of peoples backs up


I agree, however TfL is ultimatly a business and needs to operate on a profit. It does not have unlimited funds. Try telling a small business owner that they should drop their prices to support the consumer during a recession.

Seriously, I know what you mean, and understand the frustration. Just irritates me when a simple, small fare increase is blown out of proportion for the sake of dragging politics into the arguement, so people can should Maggie, Blair, Brown, Cameron... and so on. It gets tiresome.

At the end of the day, there IS a hole in the funding, partially caused by free travel and reduced cost travel, and it needs to be filled up by raising prices a little.

Im fine with that, others are not. I think I will leave it there, before I make any more immature or personal comments Rolleyes

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Ex FH Pat


Posts: 112
Joined: Oct 2009
Post: #40
20-10-2009 02:53 PM

Fair enough snazy as i think i may have gone slightly over the top as im having a go at you and others and dont even know you

Suppose really is pointless moaning as the cost will still rise

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